Linux-Misc Digest #980, Volume #27 Tue, 29 May 01 18:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why does Linux / OSS community love mailing lists and hate news servers? (Mig)
Re: Please help me get WIN98 back!! (Svend Olaf Mikkelsen)
Re: Madrake 8.0 and Nvidia openGL ("Martin")
list of daemons. (busware)
VNCserver + Mandrake-8.0?? (Ish Rattan)
how to keep hotkeys working after reboot (Dan Christensen)
Re: How To Share Network Connections Among 3 Machines? (Richard Watson)
Re: e2fs to reiser? (Mike Trettel)
Re: Is it worth upgrading kernel? (Juergen Heinzl)
System.map, boot.b, chain.b, etc etc.... (Barney)
Re: Please help me get WIN98 back!! (Obnoxio The Clown)
Re: Please help me get WIN98 back!! (James Knott)
Re: list of daemons. ("Ryan Twomey")
sendmail/postfix ("Sudhakar R.")
Re: VFS: Disk change ("Stuart R. Fuller")
Re: System hang under heavy I/O (Tom Otake)
Re: System.map, boot.b, chain.b, etc etc.... (Jerry Peters)
Re: System.map, boot.b, chain.b, etc etc.... ("Dave Nelson")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why does Linux / OSS community love mailing lists and hate news servers?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:13:48 +0200
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> "wade blazingame" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:vGHQ6.17265$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>> Threading is almost never
>> supported as well in mail clients as it is in news readers.
>
> That shouldn't be a problem to implement via the message-id, References &
> In-Replay-To fields.
> I know that OE support it.
>
>
> From RFC 2822
>
> 3.6.4. Identification fields
>
> Though optional, every message SHOULD have a "Message-ID:" field.
> Furthermore, reply messages SHOULD have "In-Reply-To:" and
> "References:" fields as appropriate, as described below.
Obviously youve never used a localised version of OE. Or does OE only mess
up european languages?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Svend Olaf Mikkelsen)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.redhat,comp.os.linux.hardware
Subject: Re: Please help me get WIN98 back!!
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:16:26 GMT
"Somphong K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I hoped to restore MBR by executing 'fdisk /MBR' under MSDOS but I was
>surprised to learn that all my Windows rescue and MSDOS diskettes failed
>to even boot. PC tried to boot from the floppies but hang after reading/
>loading a few blocks.
The Linux partitioning tool used probably made cyclic partition
tables. Change the type of the extended partition on disk 2 from 05 to
85 using Linux fdisk. Or post a partition table listing. Or set disk 2
to none in BIOS, boot to a DOS floppy and do fdisk /MBR. Keep disk 2
as none.
--
Svend Olaf
------------------------------
From: "Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.security,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Madrake 8.0 and Nvidia openGL
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:24:38 +0100
Nice one KW
Martin
"KW" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:sAOQ6.19442$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Hadn't read the article myself, but it is supposed to be a newbie guide to
> getting this setup to work... See lots of posts about this subject and
> thought this might help...
>
> http://www.littlewhitedog.com/reviews_other_00022.asp
>
>
> --
> KW
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (busware)
Subject: list of daemons.
Date: 29 May 2001 13:32:02 -0700
hello,
i am looking for a list of all the daemons and what they do for rh7.0
i looked at their website and could not locate such a list.
thank you.
------------------------------
From: Ish Rattan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: VNCserver + Mandrake-8.0??
Date: 29 May 2001 16:32:45 -0500
Hello:
what port does a vncserver accepts connections? Needed to write
a firewall rule..
Thanks in advance.
- ishwar
------------------------------
From: Dan Christensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: how to keep hotkeys working after reboot
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:29:32 +0200
Hi all
Can anybody tell me how to get the hotkeys on my logitech cordless desktop
pro, to keep working after reboot.
i run SuSE 7.1 and KDE 2.1.1 with kdelib 2.1.2
the prob is that the hotkeys work just fine, when i set them up in .Xmodmap
and run xmodmap .Xmodmap from whitin KDE in a xterm, the set them up in kde
control. but when i reboot i lose the funktion of the hotkeys, and it not
just to run xmodmap .Xmodmap again,. i also have to set it up in kde
control again... and is a pain in the a...
i tryed to put the xmodmap .Xmodmap in .xinitrc but that not the answer
Anyone !!
TIA
--
Best regards/Med venlig hilsen
Dan Christensen
icq#2778293
Powered by SuSE Linux 7.1 professional
------------------------------
From: Richard Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.setup,linux.redhat,linux.redhat.misc,uk.comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: How To Share Network Connections Among 3 Machines?
Date: 29 May 2001 21:41:28 +0100
'Dungeon' Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> .. and it came to pass that Tim Haynes
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered forth:
> >Would you care to elucidate why one woul not want two cards on one
> >network
> >and why it would be so fundamentally wrong to do so?
> If your Linux server wanted to go to the network 192.168.1.0, which
> interface would it pick: eth1 or eth2?
Whichever one had the mask 255.255.255.0 ?
--
Richard Watson GnuPG/PGP:0x55227960 http://www.doilywood.org.uk
e-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike Trettel)
Subject: Re: e2fs to reiser?
Reply-To: Y'all have to fix this@nowhere
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:47:21 GMT
On Tue, 29 May 2001 06:15:06 -0400, Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>hi,
>
>
>I'd like to use ReiserFS however currently i have everything running on
>top of an ext2 filesystem. Although I think I could move my files onto
>my Windows partition (after tarring the directories up to preserve the fs
>and then moving the file over to Windows drive), format the partitions for
>Reiser, and then move everything back over on top of the reiser fs i was
>hoping there might be a utility that converts ext2 to reiser. Am i lucky
>enough that such a utility exists? i searched on freshmeat a few days ago
>and didn't find anything.
AFAIK there is no such thing-you have to reformat and reinstall.
>
>I figured that since I coudln't do anything on a mounted / partition i'd
>have to reboot with a rescue disk with the reiser utils on it to reformat
>and *then* restore my directory structure from the tar archive that would
>be on the windows partition. Does that sound right?
>
>thanks
That's pretty much how I did it. I used the Yard boot/root rescue package
to create a set of custom boot diskettes that contained all the utilities
I needed at run time-including mkreiserfs, fdisk, tar, and most
importantly for me, the bru tape utility. I then backed up to tape using
bru, rebooted from my diskettes, verified that I could read the tape
properly, reformatted, and restored. Using tar to dump everything to
another partition isn't all that different, and in fact even easier since
you don't have to worry about a tape drive. Just be sure to restore from
your tarball with the -p switch to get your permissions right, otherwise a
lot of permissions might get reset to "safe" defaults which will give you
headaches for your regular user accounts.
--
===========
Mike Trettel trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net
I don't buy from spammers. No exceptions. Fix the reply line to mail me.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Juergen Heinzl)
Subject: Re: Is it worth upgrading kernel?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:53:31 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Corne Beerse wrote:
>Peet Grobler wrote:
>> >>I'm in the process of upgrading all the software on this machine, so if I
>> >>need to upgrade e.g. glibc, or similar, I'm doing it anyways. Won't create
>> >>more work for me.
>> >>
>> >>What do you guys think??
>> >[-]
>> >Since you're in the process upgrading pretty much else at the moment
>> >I'd even more not upgrade to a new kernel release. You've your work
>> >cut out already and in the meantime could let 2.4.x ripen a bit more.
>>
>> I'm not planning on upgrading the kernel immediately. I want to upgrade the
>> rest of the software, and once that is done, the kernel.
>>
>
>Nice you picked your upgrade track. I'd change the order: First the
>kernel (if the compiler is good enough), then the compiler (if not done
>before the kernel) and finaly the other tools, since some tools depend
>on functionallity in a kernel.
[-]
Just the other way round. I bet we left him confused now 8)
See http://kt.zork.net/kernel-traffic/ too. Esp. for 2.4.x and even if
not upgrading to it, yet.
In any case - no problems and all that,
Juergen
--
\ Real name : Juergen Heinzl \ no flames /
\ EMail Private : [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ send money instead /
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Barney)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,alt.os.linux.slackware
Subject: System.map, boot.b, chain.b, etc etc....
Date: 29 May 2001 13:55:15 -0700
Where can I find out what all this is about?
I've asked this before, and failed in trying to find out from the net.
People invariably point me to the lilo howto, but that document barely
mentions the above files, and certainly doesn't explain their
function.
When I compile a new kernel I follow the well documented procedure:
make menuconfig
make dep
make clean
make bzImage
make make modules
make modules_install
and then:
cp /usr/src/linux/arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz
(because my lilo.conf reads "image = /boot/vmlinuz")
/sbin/lilo
Is this enough? What about all the other chaff in /boot, and in
particular, System.map? There's a System.map in /usr/src/linux after a
compile, should I copy it over the top of the existing one in /boot,
and if so - why?
Sorry to be a pain. I think my problem is wanting to properly
understand rather than just doing things parrot-fashion.
Many thanks for any help offered.
Barney.
------------------------------
From: Obnoxio The Clown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.redhat,comp.os.linux.hardware
Subject: Re: Please help me get WIN98 back!!
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:55:19 +0100
On Tue, 29 May 2001, Svend Olaf Mikkelsen wrote:
>"Somphong K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>I hoped to restore MBR by executing 'fdisk /MBR' under MSDOS but I was
>>surprised to learn that all my Windows rescue and MSDOS diskettes failed
>>to even boot. PC tried to boot from the floppies but hang after reading/
>>loading a few blocks.
>
>The Linux partitioning tool used probably made cyclic partition
>tables. Change the type of the extended partition on disk 2 from 05 to
>85 using Linux fdisk. Or post a partition table listing. Or set disk 2
>to none in BIOS, boot to a DOS floppy and do fdisk /MBR. Keep disk 2
>as none.
Having just been to this movie, isn't it "format /mbr"?
------------------------------
From: James Knott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.redhat,comp.os.linux.hardware
Subject: Re: Please help me get WIN98 back!!
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:01:15 GMT
Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
>
> On Tue, 29 May 2001, Svend Olaf Mikkelsen wrote:
> >"Somphong K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>I hoped to restore MBR by executing 'fdisk /MBR' under MSDOS but I was
> >>surprised to learn that all my Windows rescue and MSDOS diskettes failed
> >>to even boot. PC tried to boot from the floppies but hang after reading/
> >>loading a few blocks.
> >
> >The Linux partitioning tool used probably made cyclic partition
> >tables. Change the type of the extended partition on disk 2 from 05 to
> >85 using Linux fdisk. Or post a partition table listing. Or set disk 2
> >to none in BIOS, boot to a DOS floppy and do fdisk /MBR. Keep disk 2
> >as none.
>
> Having just been to this movie, isn't it "format /mbr"?
No, it's fdisk /mbr, but then again, since it is a Windows partition, he
may just want to "format c:". ;-)
--
Replies sent via e-mail to this address will be promptly ignored.
To reply, replace everything to the left of "@" with "james.knott".
------------------------------
From: "Ryan Twomey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: list of daemons.
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:11:38 GMT
Well, you probably wont find a 'list' for all daemons, but there are
explanations for various individual ones. Search through a site like
Google.com/linux for info regarding any daemons you see in ps that you
dont understand.
Here's a site on the init daemon:
http://www.njnet.edu.cn/info/ebook/os/linux/lsg15.htm kswapd:
http://sophia.jpte.hu/linux/tlk/node39.html kflushd:
http://sophia.jpte.hu/linux/tlk/node113.html
-Ryan
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "busware"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hello,
>
> i am looking for a list of all the daemons and what they do for rh7.0 i
> looked at their website and could not locate such a list.
>
> thank you.
------------------------------
From: "Sudhakar R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: sendmail/postfix
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:28:40 -0400
I recently replaced my RH 7.0 with Mandrake 8.0. To my suprise I noticed
that sendmail was not the default mailer...there was this one i'd never
heard of before -- postfix.
What I need is help with setting up a mail server on my Madrake box. Any
help will be greatly appreciated.
thanx in advance
-sud
------------------------------
From: "Stuart R. Fuller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: VFS: Disk change
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:40:10 GMT
In comp.os.linux.hardware [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: Does anyone have a guess why the following message is being sent
: to my dmesg log about once a second? (2.2.18, rtl-3.0 patch)
: ...
: VFS: Disk change detected on device ide1(22,0)
: VFS: Disk change detected on device ide1(22,0)
: VFS: Disk change detected on device ide1(22,0)
: VFS: Disk change detected on device ide1(22,0)
: VFS: Disk change detected on device ide1(22,0)
: VFS: Disk change detected on device ide1(22,0)
: ...
: Be assured that no disk change is taking place.
You probably have a CDROM drive at /dev/hdc, and there is a process
periodically checking to see if you have inserted a CD. When you insert a CD,
that process will automatically mount it for you.
Stu
------------------------------
From: Tom Otake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: System hang under heavy I/O
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:43:09 GMT
==============3DBB78688B4666DC5C86B4E7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I don't think it's RAM. I've compiled the kernel many times since the
first instance of this problem and the compilation never crashed, except
whn I applied the kdb patch and it didn't find a var difinition.
I upgraded all the software to the level needed by the kernel so that's not
the roblem either. The first time this happened was after I moved from
2.2.17 to 2.4.3. Maybe there is something to look at. I might go back to
a 2.2 kernel and see if it still happens.
Michael Heiming wrote:
> Tom Otake wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've come across a slight problem, well, major problem and would like
> > to find out if anyone has come across this and knows a solution.
> >
> > In a nutshell, my Linux system hangs under heavy disk I/O. The
> > initial problem I encountered was that my box hung up while compiling
> > glibc-2.2.3. I finally compiled it and it hung up again which running
> > the checks. This was not the first time my box died on me under heavy
> > load. In any case, my first thought was, LVM is acting up on me.
> >
> > After I rebooted, I tarred up all data residing on LVM based
> > filesystems. I then created regular Linux partitions (83) on another
> > disk. The kernel I was running had LVM built in so I rebuilt the
> > kernel with LVM as a module. I rebooted again and created filesystems
> > on the newly created partitions.
> >
> > I was using reiserfs on all the LVM based partitions and did the same
> > with the regular Linux partitions. I mounted the newly created
> > filesystems and started to untar all the data. My system hung up
> > again. OK, LVM was loaded as a module, so I rebooted, made sure that
> > LVM was not loaded, mounted the reiserfs fs and repeated the untar.
> > System hangs again.
> >
> > Now I'm thinking, ok, it's reiserfs that causing the problem. After
> > rebooting, I reformatted the former reiserfs partitions, this time
> > using ext2 and mount them. lsmod shows no lvm or reiserfs, it's a
> > plain Linux system. I start the untar and system hangs again.
> >
> > My system hangs under heavy disk I/O and I eliminated LVM and reiserfs
> > as the culprit. Could anyone help me get to the bottom of this? BTW,
> > Sysreq keys are useless.
>
> I assume that it's not reiserfs nor LVM, sounds like bad RAM,
> compile a kernel if it stops with the message:
> gcc caught fatal Signal 11
>
> It should be RAM, take some out, if possible or/and try other and
> compile again.
>
> > My system:
> >
> > Base System is RedHat 6.2
> > Kernel 2.4.4
>
> You did upgrade everything, as in Documentation/Changes?
>
> > Dual PIII600, 256M RAM
> > Adaptec UW SCSI
> > 4 hdisks, CDROM, CDRW.
> >
> > Thanks
>
> Good luck
>
> Michael Heiming
--
_______________
Would you like me to go and stick my head in a bucket of water?
-- Marvin the paranoid android
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
-- Tom Otake
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Remove _nospam
-- #550
==============3DBB78688B4666DC5C86B4E7
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
I don't think it's RAM. I've compiled the kernel many times since
the first instance of this problem and the compilation never crashed, except
whn I applied the kdb patch and it didn't find a var difinition.
<p>I upgraded all the software to the level needed by the kernel so that's
not the roblem either. The first time this happened was after I moved
from 2.2.17 to 2.4.3. Maybe there is something to look at.
I might go back to a 2.2 kernel and see if it still happens.
<br>
<p>Michael Heiming wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Tom Otake wrote:
<br>>
<br>> Hi All,
<br>>
<br>> I've come across a slight problem, well, major problem and would
like
<br>> to find out if anyone has come across this and knows a solution.
<br>>
<br>> In a nutshell, my Linux system hangs under heavy disk I/O.
The
<br>> initial problem I encountered was that my box hung up while compiling
<br>> glibc-2.2.3. I finally compiled it and it hung up again which
running
<br>> the checks. This was not the first time my box died on me under
heavy
<br>> load. In any case, my first thought was, LVM is acting up on
me.
<br>>
<br>> After I rebooted, I tarred up all data residing on LVM based
<br>> filesystems. I then created regular Linux partitions (83) on
another
<br>> disk. The kernel I was running had LVM built in so I rebuilt
the
<br>> kernel with LVM as a module. I rebooted again and created filesystems
<br>> on the newly created partitions.
<br>>
<br>> I was using reiserfs on all the LVM based partitions and did the
same
<br>> with the regular Linux partitions. I mounted the newly created
<br>> filesystems and started to untar all the data. My system hung
up
<br>> again. OK, LVM was loaded as a module, so I rebooted, made
sure that
<br>> LVM was not loaded, mounted the reiserfs fs and repeated the untar.
<br>> System hangs again.
<br>>
<br>> Now I'm thinking, ok, it's reiserfs that causing the problem.
After
<br>> rebooting, I reformatted the former reiserfs partitions, this time
<br>> using ext2 and mount them. lsmod shows no lvm or reiserfs,
it's a
<br>> plain Linux system. I start the untar and system hangs again.
<br>>
<br>> My system hangs under heavy disk I/O and I eliminated LVM and reiserfs
<br>> as the culprit. Could anyone help me get to the bottom of this?
BTW,
<br>> Sysreq keys are useless.
<p>I assume that it's not reiserfs nor LVM, sounds like bad RAM,
<br>compile a kernel if it stops with the message:
<br>gcc caught fatal Signal 11
<p>It should be RAM, take some out, if possible or/and try other and
<br>compile again.
<p>> My system:
<br>>
<br>> Base System is RedHat 6.2
<br>> Kernel 2.4.4
<p>You did upgrade everything, as in Documentation/Changes?
<p>> Dual PIII600, 256M RAM
<br>> Adaptec UW SCSI
<br>> 4 hdisks, CDROM, CDRW.
<br>>
<br>> Thanks
<p>Good luck
<p>Michael Heiming</blockquote>
<pre>--
_______________
Would you like me to go and stick my head in a bucket of water?
-- Marvin the paranoid
android
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy
-- Tom Otake
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Remove _nospam
-- #550</pre>
</html>
==============3DBB78688B4666DC5C86B4E7==
------------------------------
From: Jerry Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: System.map, boot.b, chain.b, etc etc....
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,alt.os.linux.slackware
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:53:29 GMT
In alt.os.linux.slackware Barney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Where can I find out what all this is about?
> I've asked this before, and failed in trying to find out from the net.
> People invariably point me to the lilo howto, but that document barely
> mentions the above files, and certainly doesn't explain their
> function.
You need the full lilo docs, not the howto.
> When I compile a new kernel I follow the well documented procedure:
> make menuconfig
> make dep
> make clean
> make bzImage
> make make modules
> make modules_install
> and then:
> cp /usr/src/linux/arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz
> (because my lilo.conf reads "image = /boot/vmlinuz")
> /sbin/lilo
I _always_ add the new kernel with a new name to lilo.conf, gives me
an easy way, other than a boot floppy to recover if the kernel doesn't
boot.
> Is this enough? What about all the other chaff in /boot, and in
> particular, System.map? There's a System.map in /usr/src/linux after a
> compile, should I copy it over the top of the existing one in /boot,
> and if so - why?
It's used by ps and klogd to resolve kernel addresses to symbols.
The rest of the stuff is part of lilo.
> Sorry to be a pain. I think my problem is wanting to properly
> understand rather than just doing things parrot-fashion.
> Many thanks for any help offered.
> Barney.
------------------------------
From: "Dave Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,alt.os.linux.slackware
Subject: Re: System.map, boot.b, chain.b, etc etc....
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:08:40 -0500
If I remember right, doing a "make install" will update those files. It may
change the originals to *.old, so if you have multiple kernels, look for
things getting rearranged. Read all the docs in the kernel source. Back up
your vmlinuz and everything in /boot, /lib/modules, and /usr/include to be
on the safe side before trying. Make sure your modules are set up right.
When those files change, it changes the mapping.
Dave
"Barney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Where can I find out what all this is about?
> I've asked this before, and failed in trying to find out from the net.
> People invariably point me to the lilo howto, but that document barely
> mentions the above files, and certainly doesn't explain their
> function.
>
> When I compile a new kernel I follow the well documented procedure:
>
> make menuconfig
> make dep
> make clean
> make bzImage
> make make modules
> make modules_install
>
> and then:
>
> cp /usr/src/linux/arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz
> (because my lilo.conf reads "image = /boot/vmlinuz")
> /sbin/lilo
>
> Is this enough? What about all the other chaff in /boot, and in
> particular, System.map? There's a System.map in /usr/src/linux after a
> compile, should I copy it over the top of the existing one in /boot,
> and if so - why?
>
> Sorry to be a pain. I think my problem is wanting to properly
> understand rather than just doing things parrot-fashion.
>
> Many thanks for any help offered.
>
> Barney.
------------------------------
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