mmm that last suggestion would fire warning bells to me .....not exactly a
professional response , are they actually interested in any issues that may
occur ?
If they are taking this approach to a inquiry how are they going to approach
and "issue" ?

Cheers
Dale.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl Cerecke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "clug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] liability in ISP terms of service


> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 09:08, Carl Cerecke wrote:
> >
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>My ISP has updated its terms of service. Included is the following
> >>paragraph:
> >>
> >>The Customer may be liable for all charges and expenses incurred by
> >><ISP> resulting from any security breach or attack or customer error
> >>that involves Customer hardware, software, or network configuration,
> >>including IP addresses.
> >>
> >>Isn't this casting their net a bit wide? Or am I just paranoid.
> >
> >
> > And what happens is someone simply does a DOS/DDOS and spoofs your IP?
>
> Funny enough, that's what I said when I replied to the message. The guy
> didn't grok what I meant though. Here's my reply to his reply to my
> reply mentioning spoofs (If you can follow that).
>
> [ISP]
>  > There is still the opportunity for you to state your case should you
>  > experience such an issue.
>
> [ME]
> This is not mentioned in the <ISP> terms (unless I missed it), and
> relies on the goodwill of <ISP>. It should be explicitly stated as a
> right, not mentioned in passing as an opportunity.
>
> [ISP]
>  > However, this condition will save us from
>  > bearing the burden of Network outages due to DOS attacks, which many
>  > have occurred, due to Viruses like the Blaster worm and certain trojans
>  > like the one you have mentioned. We consider system security to
>  > ultimately be in the hands of the end user, and that any breech of
their
>  > systems should make them accountable, and we do not accept the
liability
>  > for costs incurred as a result of such conditions.
>
> [ME]
> The problem is, that there are ways to "breech my system" that are
> the fault of <ISP>, not me. Two examples: 1. uploading web pages to
> the user's webserver uses standard ftp that transmits passwords in the
> clear. secure-ftp is not available (last time I checked). 2. email is
> accessed via pop3, which also transmits passwords in the clear. pop3
> over SSL or IMAP is not available.
> I usually access my mail from work - 11 hops away from <ISP> over the
> internet. My system security is not in my hands alone, it is also partly
> the responsibility of <ISP>. I should not be held liable for damage done
> to <ISP> due to a security weakness at <ISP> (like the two listed above)
> even if it involves my system or setup in some way. Yet the wording of
> the <ISP> terms *does* hold me liable.
>
> [ISP]
>  > This should encourage users to extend a more thorough awareness to such
>  > issues, therefore protecting our other customers.
>
> [ME]
> My experience is that it probably won't.
>
> [ISP]
>  > If we do not meet your expectations then we can only suggest another
>  > ISP.
>
> This last sentence suprised me. Perhaps I am too much hassle as a
> customer :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Carl.
>
>

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