On 07/02/07, Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
liorean wrote:
> You needn't necessarily wrap both groupings, if either of them was
> weak and the other strong. Also, the separation is at boundaries.
> Whether it's :after of :before matters not.
This is the thing - the separator I know makes no such distinction. It
is not usually a case of the text above being of a different kind or
importance or value than the last. In fact, the element I'm thinking of
should be used specifically in cases where such distinctions cannot be made.
Well, what if you have two groups of semantically precisely the same
type, paragraphs. A common use for '* * *' in books or hr in HTML. On
one side of the separator we have a recount of what happens at some
different time and place, with another protagonist, than the other
side. So, the individual elements are just the same, they're just
paragraphs. But they have a different setting, so different groupings.
This is the prime example of when you want to actually wrap the
content on either side of the separator and eliminate the separator.
In the situation you describe, I would expect something more intrinsic
to differentiate the two passages - an indent or a border around one of
them, for example. To use a separator and no intrinsic presentational
difference from passage to passage would be a mistake, and would remove
potential semantic styling.
Maybe. You can have groupings in a single level list by juxtaposition
- whenever you list something, you always list those elements together
even if they're still the same type of elements as everything else in
the list, even if you're not consistent about the order for the other
elements, or indeed the internal order of this grouping.
> Well, again, it's fuzzy without the wrappers. You don't know what's
> being separated from what, at which hierarchical level. Wrappers only
> need to be present when there's some strong distinction, and if there
> wasn't a strong distinction, why were you using the separator in the
> first place?
This bleeds into what I've said above. Wrappers, as you say, would be
better used to impress strong semantic differences in the contained
content. But, contrary to what you suggest, I don't believe separators
should be used to denote a strong difference in the elements they
separate. If there were a strong difference, they would not be styled
identically.
I think there's a possibility of orthogonal semantical groupings
happening. On one level, it is just a paragraph. But on another level,
it's about this protagonist in this time frame in this location, and
not someone else, sometime else, someplace else.
Let me suggest a loose definition for the mythic separator (just a stab,
but I think it might clear up some of our misunderstandings): "A pause "
A pause, a gap, a fadeout/fadein, a switchover, a horizontal ruler. A
separator is inserted into the content stream, all of them linear
media for human senses, but it's meaning isn't "to be a separator".
It's meaning is to tell the two groupings apart by whichever way is
preferred in that medium.
>> 2) The simplest, cleanest and most logical way to implement this element
>> is to have a literal separator tag.
>
> In some cases, yes. I think they're a minority however, because the
> main use is typographical.
...Meaning that it is a tradition relating to print? And that this tool
no longer applies in hypertext?
In print there's no way to tell these two paragraphs belong together
and those two belong together but the pairs of paragraphs are set in
different settings without physically inserting a separator. In a way,
it's like operator precedence in math. 1*2+3*4 = (1*2)+(3*4), because
multiplication binds stronger than addition. In this case, mere
newlines binds stronger than '* * *'. This is inserted because the
medium cannot convey the grouping semantics, not because it's an
essential part of the content. Hypertext can convey the groupings,
style sheets can present the boundaries in whichever way fits the
medium.
--
David "liorean" Andersson
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