Shawn, on first startup of my current primary phone - samsung galaxy S5, I
just held two fingers on screen, and it started talkback by itself, but,
this does only work on the very first startup, and, I think, only for
certain phones.
Besides that, to activate talkback, I tell sighted guys to use a two
fingered swipe down from notification area, activate system settings,
accessibility, and turn talkback on.
Swiping left and right does navigate element to element - similar to tab on
a windows PC, and under talkback - newish versions anyway - you can turn on
screen dimming/hiding, etc.
I have pretty much avoided stock home screens from the start, and stick to
nova launcher, since I like, and am used to it's interface, and, yes, at
times graphics/icons/buttons are not labeled, but, you can then assign your
own labels to them, etc.
Main thing from my side is just the customisability, and variety of software
available for android platform that made me go for it in first place, along
with the fact that one of my deciding points was the availability of the
vOICe/seeingWithSound for android platform, including it being able to
render a tactile rendition of what's in front of the camera on the touch
screen, but, that's my own form of a side note...<smile>
In terms of different locations, for example, I have got both eloquence and
eSpeak installed on my android phones, and that means it can read text to me
in quite a few different languages if I want it to.
Also, to again bring up another point, I have been testing some entry level
handsets for a local service provider, and their prices range from ZAR 700
to ZAR900, which equates to roundabout USD70-USD90, but, they're by no means
limited in terms of functionality, but anyway.
The primary, possible issue with android phones is just that they're all
different, across manufacturer/model, so while basics are the same, you do
need to interact slightly differently with each model in terms of basic
functionality, but, then, of the software packages have been involved in
beta testing for, the interface seems to pretty much work the same across
versions, models, etc. etc., but anyway.
Stay well
Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Roger Wilco wants to welcome you...to the space janitor's closet..."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Kirkpatrick" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 3:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Porting to Android
Allow me to clairify a few things. (a rather long message ahead)
When I say an unlocked phone I mean a phone that isn't locked to any
particular cellular carrier. Quite often if you get a phone on contract from
a carrier they lock it to there network. You may not even know they've done
this until you try to use the phone on another carrier. This applies to all
platforms, Symbian, Android, and ios. Getting the phone unlocked can involve
varying degrees of complexity, price, and success. Some carriers will unlock
it for a fee, sometimes you can use online tools, and sometimes a phone just
doesn't seem to want to unlock and you're stuck with it. The way to avoid
this is just to get an unlocked phone but that means buying the phone at
full price. This has nothing to do with installing third-party software on
the phone. Doing this isn't a problem at least for android and ios if you
follow the specified procedures. The only time this could be a problem is if
the cellular carrier has installed custom firmware that prevents certain
things. You may not know this either until you want to do something that the
firmware prevents.
When I use the term workaround I mean how much work does a person have to do
to make the device accessible and usable. When I say usable I mean as a
totally blind person being able to use the phone for all the functions a
modern phone is expected to perform.
Let me state for the record that I am by no means an apple or ios fanatic.
If I had my way devices would run text-based linux and phones would have
buttons and all these touch interfaces would be a bad memory. Unfortunately
we seem to be stuck with touch interface phones so we have to make the best
of it. The reason I moved from the nokia phones to ios was I was given an
iphone 4s with the idea of mayby doing a loadstone port.
My experience has been that Apple has done a pretty good job of making what
is basically a flat peace of glass accessible and usable to a totally blind
person. To get speech on an iphone or ipad all you have to do is hold down
the home button and say "turn voiceover on" and that's it. You don't have to
install any additional software or change the device in any way. This makes
it possible to use a friend or family member's iphone or ipad if needed. (To
confuse a sighted person just leave the speech on without telling them, for
additional fun turn on screen curtain) This accessibility is by no means
perfect, it has its share of bugs and glitches. Some of these are just
annoying, others frustrating, and others just mind-numbingly stupid. It's a
matter of how many bugs and glitches there are and the impact they have on
what you're trying to do.
I have pretty much no experience with android but the one experience I do
have was very negative. A few days ago I had an oppertunity to look at an
android phone. This was the latest model from Samsung (galaxie I think).
Even with sighted assistance we could not figure out how to turn the speech
on. I have no doubt that most of this was user error but the fact that it
couldn't be figured out is a big problem. Any access technology that needs
sighted assistence to activate really needs to be rethought. It's those kind
of things that cause me concern about doing anything with the android
platform.
When it comes to accessibility it really can be a matter of opinion as to
what is and is not acceptable to the user. From the information I've been
reading about android (I've tried to find information from 2015 when
possible) it would have issues that would make it unacceptable to me. Not
being able to turn the speech on without sighted assistance is a big problem
to me. Another example would be that android doesn't have a gesture to move
from element to element to explore the screen (feel free to correct this if
it's wrong) but you have to move your finger around all parts of the screen
to see what's there. On an ios device you can just swipe left and right to
move between all elements on the screen, a very useful thing in my opinion
and possibly a deal breaker to not have it. The review I was reading was
also giving other examples of possible problems, unlabeled images on the
home screen by default, things not being read in the correct order etc. It
was also suggesting some workarounds like installing another home screen
launcher to improve accessibility etc. Some of this would be a matter of
opinion, the reviewer's deal breaker was not having a screen curtain feature
where as I couldn't care less about this feature. Some of this could also
depend on the device used, another possible issue with the android platform.
When using ios the experience is pretty much consistant accross the entire
line of devices since they're all made by Apple. With android the experience
may very since different manufacturers make different devices. There are
good and bad points that can be made for both approaches but it is something
to be awhere of when choosing a platform.
As for the number of people using what this seems to be very region
dependant. In my case of friends and family in Canada and the UK the break
down is:
1 nokia phone (symbian series 40)
2 android phones (one samsung, not sure of the other one)
at least 9 iphones (models ranging from 4s to 6s)
at least 3 ipads (not sure of models)
This is admittedly a very small sample size but it does show the
differences.
As far as development goes the statistics I've been reading seem to say
something like 37% for one and 40% for the other (can't remember which was
which) so that would seem to indicate that it's pretty much even as to which
platform developers are developing for.
When it comes to cost there seems to be a huge range of options. For android
people clame that there are devices for $100 or less but it can also go up
to $550 or more. This would be because of the different devices by different
manufacturers. I'm not talking about second hand devices since the prices on
thoes can be hard to predict. The ios devices seem to start around $500 or
so and go up from there. The development costs for android are also cheaper,
around $25 or so for an app on google play vs $125 for an app on the app
store. The android development can also be done on a pc where the ios
development has to be done on a mac driving up the cost. This would make
android a cheaper platform but do you get what you pay for? It's back to a
matter of opinion on that question.
For more information on the focus of the fund raiser see my next message.
On Wed, 21 Oct 2015, Milos Przic wrote:
Hi Shawn,
I write only now because the hole conversation about the fundrasing and
porting finished in my spam folder. Anyway, as a passionat user of the
Loadstone app back on Symbian, and as a passionate user of android (and
not a
developer), let me have my two senses on this. I hope that noone will get
offended, this is not my intention.
However, the problem with blind people is that they want everything
perfectly
set for them, and when they think that they have it, they don't want to
see
the cons of their choice, they see only pros. This has been the case with
the
ios-android problem on all levels, by which I mean among the developers,
among the advanced users and among average ones. It was shone in your
statements too! For example, you talked about the unlocked android phone.
By
talking about it, you actually said that an ios device has to be unlocked
by
finding a workaround for that, and in case of Android, the word workaround
gives you concerns. So if you and all other ios fanatics out there wanted
to
look on the things in a more objective manner, the things would be
easier.
And here is some personal statistics, similar to the one that Emanuel
brought
out by mentioning the school where he works. I am from Serbia and I don't
know many people who use IPhone. The first reason is its price, the second
reason is that it is a closed and limited platform: many apps available on
the App store you can not buy in Serbia, for example. I know a hole lot of
people who use android, and are happy to find the thing you refer to as
workaround rather than to buy a pricy, more limited thing that apparently
doesn't require workarounds. I had studied in Italy for 3 years, and
people
there had more Ihpones because of the standard of the country. When I
braught
Android into attention as a possibility, I was ridiculed. The final
result,
however, was passing of the most fanatic ios users to Android, thanks to
its
fast growing accessibility and never ended flexibility! So if the things
were
said in another manner, for example, if the donation were for Android and
not
for ios, you could count on my donation, and I know at least a few other
people who will not! donate for Iphone but wil be more than glad to donate
for Android. The reason for this is the behavior of the ios users towards
the
other platforms (you should see my italian friends trying to justify the
Ihpone 6 possibility to be bended). And no, this is not only the matter of
personal opinion, as you said before, because if you base something so
public
as the fundrasing is on the personal opinion and not on the facts, the
fundrasing wil unfortunately remain on 0.
Again, I didn't intend to offend, I just wanted to illustrate the
situation
in a most objective way possible. I hope to see my so far most favorite
gps
app Loadstone for Android!
Best,
Miloš Pržić
Twitter: MilosPrzic
Skype: Milosh-hs
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Kirkpatrick"
<[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Porting to Android
Thank you for the offer, this actually sounds like a nice little phone so
I'll give it some thought. Unfortunately phraises like "it's not very
comfortable with talkback" cause me concern. The more I read about
accessibility and the android platform the more of these phraises I keep
seeing. Things like:
If you change the default synthesizer ...
once you change the default home screen launcher ...
depending on device selection ...
and android version ...
some applications are accessible but ...
there's a work around for ...
Then after every ... there's an explanation of something that might work
or
partially work.
I found someone I know that has an android phone so I'm hoping to at
least
get a look at it in the next week or so to either confirm or deny some of
these things. I don't want to get in to a situation where I'm developing
for a device or platform that is only useful for loadstone or maybe not
even that. We made a similar mistake while developing loadstone for the
nokia phones. Most nokia phones were fine (for what they were at the
time)
but then I was given an n97 mini for testing. This was a phone with a
touch
screen and a slide out keyboard. The usability on this phone was
absolutely
horrible. The combination of the symbian os, the touch interface, and the
support that talks had for it made the worst experience possible.
Ttechnically it worked and could be called accessible but practically
speaking the device wasn't usable for anything, loadstone maybe worst of
all. This phone now just sits on my desk and never got to the point of
being road tested with loadstone. The lesson learned here is that there
can
be a very big difference between accessibility and usability and a device
that isn't usable just doesn't get used. If I'm going to spend the time
effort and money to develop for a platform then I want to make very sure
it's something I can actually use.
I'm glad to hear that development (at least eclipse) is accessible. This
would seem to put android and ios on equal footing in that area at least.
On Sat, 10 Oct 2015, Emanuel Boboiu wrote:
I have a Samsung Young phone which I can give you for free, I can send
it
from Romania via Mail if it's possible. It is a 60 euros price, but it
has
everything: wifi, GPS, memory ram one giga, like an iPhone 5, it has 4
GB
internal storage and support a 64 SD card flash memory, I have here one
of
8 GB which I can put inside before sending.
Of course this phone is small and it is not so confortable with
talkback,
but everything can be done with a little patience. Even Google Maps
works.
You can use of course Google Maps APIs for free.
If you are interested, my e-mail address is emanuelboboiu at gmail dot
com.
Best regards,
Manu
-----Original Message----- From: Shawn Kirkpatrick
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 3:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Porting to Android
I keep hearing about these sub $100 android devices, so hear's a
challenge
for anyone, find a sub $100 android unlocked phone in Canada. The
hardware
would at least have to have a gps and enough memory to hold a reasonable
amount of map data. It would also have to perform well with talkback. I
look
forward to seeing what people come up with.
As for loadstone being a web app that's not what loadstone is all about.
The
idea is to have it work without a data plan or connectivity of any kind.
Of
course if you have connectivity even better for data loading and other
features but the basics will function offline.
On Fri, 9 Oct 2015, Kotian, H P wrote:
All
I am getting a feeling, there is a strong resistance porting to
Android.
Nexsas devices are indeed pricy. But there are plenty of Android
devices
which are Sub $100 which has the GPS and decent hardware to test the
developed apps.
Usability of Android devices gets a bit impacted by customisations been
done by vendors. However, they will not come in the way of testing a
developed apps.
Moto G is not pricy at all and they are Stock Android.
At any rate, the approach to make the appweb based would take care of
all
the platform issues.
Do consider the developments on this line.
Harish Kotian
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