Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.
Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@" mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@" archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going this time around? Cheers, Paul On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: > Matt, > > Any update on this? > > Ralph > > On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> > wrote: > > Thanks Matt! > > Ralph > > On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: > > No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with > bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today. > > On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: > >> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions? >> >> Ralph >> >> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I got this response from Gavin: >> >> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request. >> >> Merging the lists - no problem >> Merging all the subscribers - no problem >> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - >> no problem >> >> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if >> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the >> hint. >> >> If you are :- >> >> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users >> know this is happening and the date then let me know. >> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate >> further. >> >> Thanks >> >> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me >>> follow up with infra. >>> >>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Is there any follow-up to this? >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> 1. That seems fine to me. >>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender >>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add >>>> [list] to the start of the subject line. >>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen. >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Some things: >>>> >>>> 1. Archives won't be merged. >>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email >>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over >>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer. >>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically >>>> subscribed to the combined list. >>>> >>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform >>>> senders to use the new list? >>>> >>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache. >>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 >>>>> >>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes, >>>>>> >>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ralph >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and >>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the >>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now? >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Total agreement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses >>>>>>>> dropped the other lists. This is a horrible way to have discussions >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. >>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it >>>>>>>> useful for >>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and >>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar >>>>>>>> architectures >>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more >>>>>>>> inclusive >>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine >>>>>>>> .com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the >>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the >>>>>>>>> subprojects. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner < >>>>>>>>> dpsen...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging >>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the >>>>>>>>>> same or a >>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one >>>>>>>>>> Apache >>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification >>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That >>>>>>>>>> means all >>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good >>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the >>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those >>>>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. >>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before >>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago >>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic >>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that >>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, >>>>>>>>>> these are >>>>>>>>>> just release announcements. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it >>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we >>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for >>>>>>>>>> all devs >>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't >>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes >>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s >>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things >>>>>>>>>>> that would >>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists >>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to >>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>>>>>>> d...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1 >>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1 >>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0 >>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5 >>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1 >>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ >>>>>>>>>>> -> u...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1 >>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1 >>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0 >>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3 >>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0 >>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just >>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services >>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>>>>>>> d...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, >>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> u...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become >>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future >>>>>>>>>>> emails. >>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> [java] >>>>>>>>>>> [net] >>>>>>>>>>> [cxx] >>>>>>>>>>> [php] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should >>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Voting: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists! >>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much. >>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it. >>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 >>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The >>>>>>>>>>> vote >>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal* >>>>>>>>> Senior software developer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Magine TV* >>>>>>>>> mikael.stal...@magine.com >>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3 | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden | www.magine.com >>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in >>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message >>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you >>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, >>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by >>>>>>>>> reply email. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >> >> >> > > > -- > Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > > > -- Cheers, Paul
