On Wed, Mar 29, 2006 at 04:11:25PM -0800, Joseph Toman wrote:

> It is certainly an assumption, but it's not bogus. I was just restricting
> the argument to the case where you had to by new hardware. Obviously
> old hardware changes the equation.

It's bogus, IMHO, because you're restricting your argument to the 30%
section (if that) of the market, and ignoring the 70% of the people (if
not more) who will re-use existing equipment.  Is a specially designed
motherboard in a custom designed small case, that uses no fans, and has
special silicon in it going to be LESS than a hugely mass produced,
commonly available commodity PC?  Sure.  But, start to factor in the
fact that SOMEONE's going to get a call when the cpu fan or psu fan
starts to rattle.  Now you've added on $25 for the fan, and $35 for shop
rates to replace it.  Add to the fact that the person's got the boeing
747 noise at his feet, plus a machine with a 300 watt powersupply
probably producing 150 watts generated heat, as compared to the 45 watt
thin client.  Less noise in the users room means an employee can
concentrate better, which hopefully leads to better productivity.  A
smaller case footprint means more room on the users desk, which means
more productivity.  Plus, you need fewer tons of cooling to remove that
45 watts of power, which translates into coolant plant savings, never
mind the savings in the raw cost of electricity.  Less electricity =
more savings still.  Plus less pollution to GENERATE that power.

Plus, that $600 thin client's gonna LAST way longer.  No fans + low
power requirements = longer life.  How'd your comptroller feel about a
"throwaway" $400 box that lasts a year or two, versus a $600 one that's
gonna last at LEAST 5 years, if not longer.  NOW which is the better
value?

And that's just the 30%.  Yank the hard drive out of the box you've
already depreciated down to zero, and underclock it so it runs cooler,
and uses less power.  Now you've got electricity savings PLUS heat
savings PLUS some noise savings all on a box you already own, for the
grand sum total of the 5 minutes it'll take you to pop the side of the
case off, and yank the power connector from the hard drive.

And we haven't even STARTED to talk about administrative savings yet.
We've restricted this to just the evironmental concerns.

> >Uuuuhhh, huh?  So, when one of our lawyers word processors doesn't
> >launch, or she gets a virus, we're supposed to run out and buy a whole
> >new machine?
> >
> > 
> >
> I'm not claiming it's a good idea, it's just what I've seen.

But that doesn't fit in with you're original assumption: if thy haven't
got a lot of ready cash available, they take it down to Ma and Pa
Kettle's for the $50 fix, or get Bob in receiving's kid nephew to come
down.  They're certainly NOT going to buy a new one.  This is the
"What?! we just bought that thing 2 years ago!" argument you hear.  It's
the businesses or people who've got LOTS of cash who treat them as
disposable.  And even then, they're not.  They've still got taxes,
spreadsheets, pictures, music, etc etc etc that they want off of the old
box, and onto the new box, and SOMEONE has to transfer that stuff.

I have a business I deal with in my spare (!) time.  They're
accountants, and ROLLING in dough, and they STILL are running pentium 1
terminals.  Why?  'Cuz they still work great as diskless boxes.

Someone with no cash is gonna use what they have until the wheels fall
completely off.  Even then, they'll see how long they can limp along on
three wheels.

The ONLY segment of the population who I've ever seen treat machines as
disposable are 17 year old gamers. :)

And remember: we're being North America centric here: we've maybe GOT
the $400 to spend.  The school teacher in New Delhi's been lucky to get
a share of the Shipping Container full of North American castoff's, and
told he's gotta make a lab out of it somehow.  S/He hasn't GOT a choice:
they work with what they've got.

If the teacher's been lucky, maybe they got 1 pentium II with 256 megs
of ram, and a bunch of pentium 75's.  Well hey: that's a lab running
IceWM and Galeon right there.

<snip>

> So you're saying that they get around the cost by having volunteer IT.

Sometimes.  Sometimes they take it in for the three month $50 tuneup.
They'll do that 4 times a year for the next ten years rather than buy a
new $400 box once every two years becase, $400 is $400, but $50 is chump
change, so they keep shelling out.  And they're the people who can
benefit the MOST from thin client technology.  Because the problem with
the $400 pc is: it'll STILL need the $50 a quarter tune up.

For Bob in receiving's kid nephew, they usually get a couple of free
visits out of him until Bob takes the kid aside and tells him to wise up
and start charging the owner $50.  Then the only difference is that the
kid usually makes house calls :)

<snip>

> You've never done volunteer IT and wondered how they possibly get work 
> done on this machine?

Yeah, so I take along come Etherboot floppies and put on a show for
them.  :)  Both my volunteer jobs turned into somewhat-paying ones that
way: they can stomach buying ONE good machine if the 20 they already got
can use it.

> >Yeah, you're right.  I vote we shut down LTSP, and let the millions of
> >people in Africa, Brazil, Europe and here in North America just keep
> >buyin those $400 pc's.
> > 
> >
> Whoa! You've misunderstood me. I'm not advocating anything. I'm just 
> wondering where the economic argument
> goes in the face of ever decreasing hardware costs.

That wasn't how the original email read, hence my somewhat sarcastic
response.  If I misinterpreted your intentions, my apologies.

However, as you can see from the first part of this email, you can
EASILY make up the cost difference between a professional grade thin
client, versus a bottom-of-the-barrel disposable PC, on the
environmental savings alone.  Maintenance costs only sweeten the pot
from there.  And that's just for buying new.  Using what you've got
increases the savings bucketloads.

For a single pc home, there's no cost advantage to a thin client.
However, if you've got a computer in Jimmy and Sally's room, and Mom's
got hers for looking up woodworking projects, and Dad keeps his for his
stamp collection, then there's even savings to be had there.

Scott

-- 
Scott L. Balneaves | "Looking beyond the embers of bridges glowing behind us
Systems Department |  To a glimpse of how green it was on the other side..."
Legal Aid Manitoba |    -- Pink Floyd "High Hopes"

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