On Dec 18, 2006, at 11:19 PM, Jimen Ching wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, R. Scott Belford wrote:
The person you are referring to is a lifelong resident of this
beautiful island, and I think it is reasonable to be surprised
that a mailing list about FOSS could become so childishly petty.
I'm still not exactly sure what the issues are. But this thread is
about the definition of LUAU, so I'll assume your comment applies
to this thread. If your comment doesn't apply, then please ignore.
Attempting to define LUAU is like trying to hold water in your fist.
I've cared about the direction of the LUAU mailing list for a long
time. I'm sure the archives will show that I've voiced my opinions
on the matter on many occasions. If that proves me to be childish
and petty, then so be it.
And what action(s) have you taken?
This is quite different than transit, education, or other issues
that are neither free, voluntary, nor inherently cooperative.
As you mentioned in your email below, running a mailing list isn't
free either. And from your tone (and I admit I might have
misinterpreted), it wasn't very voluntary or cooperative. What I
mean by that is; it seems you were forced into supporting the
mailing list out-of-pocket. I didn't realize the depth of this
commitment.
I'm sure Scott was glad to do it, too.
But if I've interpreted your email correctly, then there does seem
to be a lot of similarity between FOSS and these other
communities. I've been around FOSS long enough to know that it
suffers from the same problems as anything else. I only need to
point to Debian to prove my point. Though, that may or may not be
fair to FOSS or Debian.
How is it that this list is managed and sustained? The charitable
entity called HOSEF was created and named on this mailing list.
Everyone was invited and encouraged to participate. After its
creation HOSEF adopted LUAU, with the blessing of its former
manager, and aside from the occasional bruised ego it has been a
very good relationship.
I remember an email from you at the beginning of this effort that
says something to the effect--LUAU will remain a mailing list about
general Linux and free/open source software. I didn't realize that
LUAU would become a tool of/for HOSEF. I don't know if this is
what you are implying when you said HOSEF adopted LUAU. Is this
what the former managers blessed?
Nothing Scott said has to be interpreted as making LUAU a tool of/for
HOSEF. This is your interpretation.
Scott may have been saying that LUAU will continue as it is/was, (a
mailing lit about general Linux and free/open source software.
If you review the history carefully, the "former managers" had
checked out.
If this is what the HOSEF organization is trying to do from the
beginning, I would have done something more to keep LUAU independent.
LUAU is independent.
LUAU is also essentially the same people who are involved with
HOSEF. At the least, the intersection of the two sets is quite large.
The people who feel strongest about the independence of LUAU have
done nothing to preserve it. No one stepped up to provide
hardware or support for this list when it was asked for many, many
years ago. Until a few hard drives were funded one day at
McKinley, the entire dual athlon 4U server currently at UH was
from my pocket. Instead of gratitude or appreciation there has
been resentment.
I thought you stepped up to support LUAU. And by support, I mean
to just host the mailing list. I guess you're now saying you were
forced into it? I didn't realize this situation existed. If to
keep LUAU independent requires that I put my money where my mouth
is, I am ready to purchase these equipments. Let's meet to discuss
this further. Can I attend your next HOSEF board meeting? When is
that?
Yes, you can attend the next HOSEF board meeting. Its tomorrow night.
Do you want to suggest an agenda item, or were you coming to listen?
As I've stated before:
You are free to 'fork' the list, and always have been.
You are free to copy the archives of the list, and always have been
You are free to post messages to the LUAU list and tell the assembled
there that you have a different list (you can even name it LUAU,
though its obviously not going to be <luau@lists.hosef.org>. Those
you invite are free to join in.
You have always been free to do these things, but there is a reason
you have not.
You may wish to explore same.
Thanks to a whole host of folks, namely Ed Orcutt, LUAU was born.
Thanks to Warren Togami, LUAU was revived. Thanks to Brian Chee's
willingness to host us and Vince Hoang's willingness to
administrate us, LUAU exists. A history of sorts is here
http://www.hosef.org/wiki/LUAU_history
Yes, and I hope LUAU stays open to many organizations, whether
HOSEF or others. But from this thread, I don't get that
confortable feeling. This is from someone who was there when
Warren tried to turn LUAU into MPLUG. I see this episode as just
another incarnation of that attempt.
In my next message, I will post on the topic of Beer Nuts, or perhaps
ask about DSLR recommendations. I am free to do so, of course, but
its anti-social. LUAU
is a list about linux, open source and free software in Hawaii.
Correct. HOSEF does not "own" LUAU. HOSEF is the entity that has
managed and sustained LUAU. Jim is correct that HOSEF=LUAU, and
you are correct that LUAU is not owned by HOSEF. LUAU does not
magically exist, though, and there is real work and sacrifice
behind this thing so many take for granted.
I'm getting mixed messages here. I hope that LUAU is open to all
non-profit organizations. I hope that a year from now, if someone
wants to say MYNONPROFIT=LUAU, that is just as valid.
LUAU is open to all who want to stay on topic and participate in the
assembled community.
But, I think it would be better if people understood that LUAU is
not tied to any one organization, but instead, is a community of
all free and open source groups/projects/organizations. Everyone
is free to associate themselves to LUAU. But LUAU should remain
independent of them all. I think the members of LUAU would
appreciate that. I know when I joined LUAU, I joined LUAU, not HOSEF.
You limit yourself unnecessarily. Why?
Interesting. Your volunteer time to help Julian and Vince
administrate LUAU is always welcome. Your time to install the
soon-to-be donated hard drives would be appreciated. No
individual has the ability to dump LUAU.
I'm specifically concerned about LUAU the mailing list, not HOSEF
in general.
Did Scott say anything about HOSEF? No. He said, "Your volunteer
time to help Julian and Vince administrate LUAU is always welcome.
" You responded with a red herring. Why?
If I understand the hard drive thread, that's about mirroring of
distributions. I do not believe LUAU as a mailing list will be
significantly impacted by this. But if it is, I'm willing to
purchase the necessary equipment to make it independent.
Does the local mirroring of distributions not help those who are
interested in the topics appropriate for LUAU?
What else is there if not passion? How about civility and respect.
I've been a member of LUAU long before HOSEF.
This doesn't mean you are being civil or respectful.
And now I'm being told that since I don't provide the time and
money to maintain it, I don't have a say in the direction of LUAU.
You've been told no such thing, of course.
It's hard to be civil to an organization that treats the members of
a mailing list that it doesn't own as petty children. Or be
respectful to that organization for trying to take over something
that used to be open to all, including other organizations.
its always been open to all who want to stay on topic.
No "organization" posts here. We are all individuals, and I doubt
that many, indeed if any of us think we represent an organization
when we post here.
But you're right. If I'm not willing to put my money where my
mouth is, then I should just shut up. I hope HOSEF and I can
resolve this server ownership issue and give LUAU back to it's
independent community.
See above
I'll make a solemn promise to the LUAU members now--I promise once
the ownership of the server, that the mailing list resides on, is
free, that the list and the machine will be owned by the community
as a whole and not me personally. This way, no one can try to
redefine it again. The machine will still need volunteers to
maintain it. I hope Vince will continue that duty. But if not,
I'll volunteer until someone else wishes to take over.
I don't see you taking any positive steps.
jim
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