----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:10 AM Subject: Re: Hard chords: was Songs by A.Schlick?
Dear Ed, Thanks for taking the discussion further. Threads about left-hand fingering may appear boring and unnecessarily academic to some s*bscr*b*rs, but this discussion, I believe, is of fundamental importance to anyone who plays the lute. My comments are scattered amongst yours. (I hope you don't mind, but I'll stick to my spelling of barr�, rather than bar, because of possible confusion with the other meaning of bar, i.e. measure in American usage.) > I didn't say I couldn't play it. I just dislike > it! It's the context often. Take this example > from Van der Hove's Une jeune fillette: > > |\ |\ |\ |\ > |\ |\ |\ |\ > | |\ | |\ > | | | | > ____d_b__a______a_b_a_ > _a_____|_b__b_d__ > _b_____|_b_______ > _a_____|_________ > _______|_d_______ > _d_____|_________ > > I've experimented with placing the bar at the end > of the first measure and lifting the knuckle for > the next chord but it's quite hard on my finger. > Placing the bar at the beginning of the second > bar is difficult to get smooth because of the > change in position from an upright index to a bar > on the adjacent strings. One thing should be > mentioned, and that is the alternative of leaving > out the Eb on the second string if you have an > octave on the fifth: weighing smoothness against > fullness. The whole point of what I am trying to say is that there is no barr�. The 1st finger may sometimes have to cover two courses instead of one, but it is not laid flat. It comes down on the strings exactly as it does when you play one course. When you play an instrument like the modern guitar, which has single courses, you hold down each string in the normal way. If you then pick up a lute, which has double courses, you don't start holding down every course with a barr�, just because there are two strings involved instead of one. Your fingers work the same way with double courses as they do with single courses. You do it without even batting an eyelid. In the same way, you don't have to use a barr� on two courses, just because there happens to be four strings involved. There is no difference at all between the following two chords, at least as far as the angle of the fingers is concerned, as they come down on the fingerboard: _____________a__ __a_________1b__ _1b_________1b__ __a_________2c__ _2c___and___3d__ _3d_____________ In passages like the one you quote from Une Jeune Fillette, there is always the possibility of using the 2nd finger for the last note of the first bar, but I don't think I would opt for that here. Using the 1st finger for b3, b1, and then b2 and b3, gives it a lot to do, but that's OK, as long as the 1st finger works at the same angle throughout, whether it is holding down one course or two. If you use a barr� for that E flat chord, I would agree that it makes life easier to leave out the E flat on the 2nd course, but that is only if you have been trying to use a barr�. If you do what I suggest, and hold down b2 and b3 as if they were a single course, it is as easy to play those two courses, as it is to play just one. This is the fingering I gave for the passage towards the end of Mille Regretz: > > |\ > > | > > | > >______a____a___a___ > >__a__1b_|_1b__1b_|_ > >________|_1b__1b_|_ > >_2c__2c_|________|_ > >_____3d_|_3d__3d_|_ > >________|________|_ You were not too happy with it. > Well, different strokes for different folks. The > exact same measure is near the end of the Phalese > version of Mille Regretz. I would finger that one: > > |\ > | > | > ______a____a___a___ > __a__2b_|_2b___b_|_ > ________|_1b___b_|_ > _3c__3c_|________|_ > _____4d_|__d___d_|_ > ________|________|_ > > not knowing what comes after, anyway. That gives > me a little more control and the possibility to > put a slight vibrato on it if I want. > > The main point for me and Eb is that these old > fingers aren't as flexible as they used to be. > Some people absolutely cannot get any curve in > that first knuckle and some people can make an > 'L' shape. Your alternative fingering is the very thing I am trying to avoid. My fingers are getting old too, which is one reason why I would avoid unnecessarily tortuous fingerings. Let's imagine that the same passage is transposed down a 4th. Which of these two fingerings would you prefer? |\ | | ___________________ ______a_|__a___a_|_ __a__1b_|_1b__1b_|_ ________|_ a___a_|_ _2c__2c_|________|_ _____3d_|_3d__3d_|_ or |\ | | ___________________ ______a_|__a___a_|_ __a__2b_|_2b__2b_|_ ________|__a___a_|_ _3c__3c_|________|_ _____4d_|_4d__4d_|_ ? Let's move on to the other extract from Mille Regretz. I wrote: > >Less obvious is this passage: > > > > |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ > > | |\ | |\ | |\ > > | | | | | | > >____________________________f___f_ > >_d__b_a_|_d____|_d_____|_b____|_b_ > >_f______|_d____|___b___|_d____|___ > >________|____e_|_e_____|______|___ > >_c__d___|_f____|_f_d_c_|_a____|_a_ > >________|______|_______|______|___ > > > >It might be possible to hold b2 and d3 at the start of bar 4, but I > >prefer to let it go for the sake of a good f1 at the start of bar 5. > >This means that, apart from the first and last chord of this > >extract, I use that E flat chord fingering, i.e. no barr�, but with > >the 1st finger covering the 2nd and 3rd courses at the same fret. You wrote: > The only thing I'm wondering about is the d at > the beginning of bar 3. Does it need to be held? > Not impossible, if you play with the 2nd finger > and pivot on it to play the next chord with 1 and > 3. Theoretically you're right: d2 at the start of bar 3 should be held to the end of the bar. However, I think it's one of those places, where not being able to hold a note for it's full length on the lute is actually an advantage. We've already heard d2 in the previous bar, so it is well established in our ears, and our brain will still continue to register that note, even after the note has stopped sounding. The fact that d2 drops out half way through bar 3 helps us concentrate on an important inner voice, which starts as e4 in bar 2. In fact I play that e4 quite a bit louder than everything else, so as to draw attention to the inner voice. > >This is particularly useful linking the E flat chord at the end of > >bar 3 to the C minor chord at the start of bar 4. My 1st finger > >stays put between the 2nd and 3rd courses throughout, and doesn't > >need to move. No doubt players who cannot manage my E flat chord > >fingering, would move their 1st finger sideways here, from the 3rd > >course to the 2nd. > > It goes to show the kind of thought that you and > many of us put into fingering of the left hand. > It is indeed an art. Do you know of any sources > that discuss it in this kind of depth of detail? > All I know are a few that give guidelines and > some fingerings, like T. Robinson. There are various sources which give left-hand fingerings, although it is fair to say that they don't all agree on what is best. Newsidler and Robinson might raise a few eyebrows, but they have their own reasons for saying what they do. I mentioned _Varietie_, because it gives credence to what I am trying to say about that E flat chord. It gives a lot of information about left-hand fingering, both for chords and single-line melodies. > >By the way, the left-hand fingerings in _Varietie_ do not involve > >fancy barr�s with fingers other than the 1st finger. For example, > >_Varietie_ gives > > > >__1b_________2d___ > >__3c_________4f___ > >__2c_________3f___ > >__________________ > >__4e___and___1c___ > >__________________ > > D'oh!, there's another chord I dislike! (the first one) > > >not > > > >__1b_________2d___ > >__2c_________4f___ > >__2c_________4f___ > >__________________ > >__4e___and___1c___ > >__________________ > > Of course some people might find that the easiest > way. I've known jazz players who regularly use > such mini-bars on all fingers. Yes, there are many ways to skin a cat. One's choice of which finger to use is partly determined by the physical characteristics of the instrument, e.g. width of neck, what sort of strings, string action, etc. For example, a modern classical guitar has quite a wide neck compared to an electric guitar or jumbo guitar for Country & Western music. This means that classical guitarists would opt for a barr�, where guitarists with narrow-necked instruments might prefer to bring their left-hand thumb into use. Although _Varietie_ does not suggest fancy barr�s with fingers other than the 1st finger, it is clear from Antonio Corona's article on the vihuela (_The Lute_ part 2 of 1986), that vihuelists must have used all kinds of devious left-hand fingerings. > >Success with the left hand is largely determined by knowing the > >correct order in which fingers should hold down the strings of any > >particular chord. > > Very true. One of the things I've focused on > recently is preparing certain fingers behind > other fingers on the same string for a change in > position. I find that helpful when there is a > jump and no guide finger. You can sometimes find > an unused finger that becomes a guide by > preparing it. Yes. I would add that the guide finger doesn't have to be on the same string. There's a nice example of this in Mille Regretz: |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ | | | _2c__a__a__________a________a_ __________|____3e_____3e_|____ _3d____1b_|_4f___________|_4d_ __________|_2e___________|_2c_ __________|_1c___________|_4d_ __________|______________|____ The 1st finger has to jump from b3 (in bar 1) to e4 (in bar 2). That's tricky. It's generally bad news if you take all your fingers away from the fingerboard. It is important to maintain contact with the strings, just to keep your place. In the passage above I would add c4 at the end of bar 1, to be touched by the 2nd finger, but not with the strings pressed right down to the fingerboard: |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ | | | _2c__a__a__________a________a_ __________|____3e_____3e_|____ _3d____1b_|_4f___________|_4d_ ______[2c]|_2e___________|_2c_ __________|_1c___________|_4d_ __________|______________|____ With the 2nd finger touching (bit not stopping) the 4th course, it is possible to slide it along to e4, where it comes down for the next chord. It's a piece of cake. :-) All the best, Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
