Dear Stewart and Jaroslaw,

In a way you are both right advocating legitimate interpretations, theoretically opposite. But they overlap and that common region is in much degree subjective, depending on context, historicall or personal styles, even some national propensities (compare the Italian and French battles over the style of composition or performance in the XVIIth C.).

The problem is that the discussion started from a very bad exemple which nither represent a dance form (in case of the web site 'as if Polish') but a free composition, nor any particular style of playing. Actually, I'd have to get massively drunken in order to play for over ten years the same notorious Finale 'by Dlugoraj' and not much else. The player seems much more imaginative in self promoting (as the entire contents of the page testifies!) then musical interpretation.

Then, I think, P O'Dette and H Smith, or R Lislevand, or even J Bream, are safer for polemics however contrasting are their interpretations. The discussion can be exciting, even limited to verbal descriptions (for the lack of sound, the soul of music) and can tell perhaps more of ourselves and our preferences, then the subject itself, so elusive.

So forgive I shortened the Subject and cut off the useless association.
Jurek
______________

On 2008-02-03, at 17:03, Stewart McCoy wrote:

Dear Jaroslav,

Thank you very much for these observations, which you have presumably taken from Robert Donington, _The Interpretation of Early Music_ (London: Faber &
Faber, new version reprinted 1975), p. 425.

The first passage you quote, which Donington took from Thomas Mace, p. 147,
is incomplete. The full text given by Donington is:

"Many Drudge, and take much Pains to Play their Lessons very Perfectly, (as
they call It (that is, Fast) which when they can do, you will perceive
Little Life, or Spirit in Them, meerly for want of the Knowledge of This last Thing, I now mention, viz. They do not labour to find out the Humour,
Life, or Spirit of their Lessons."

Here Mace is arguing for music to be played expressively, to capture the mood of a composition. He says that many players think you just have to get the notes right and play the piece up to speed, the faster the better. This does not really counter what I have been saying about lutenists playing out of time. You would have done better to look seven pages further on (p. 432),
where you will find another passage taken from Mace (p. 81):

"[Beginners must learn strict time; but] when we come to be Masters, so that
we can command all manner of Time, at our own Pleasures; we Then take
Liberty, (and very often, for Humour [i.e. "mood", not "wit"], and good Adornment-sake, in certain Places), to Break Time; sometimes Faster, and
sometimes Slower, as we perceive, the Nature of the Thing Requires."

In my earlier e-mail, I quoted the passage on p. 124 of _Musick's Monument_:

" ... you cannot fail to know my Mistress's Humour, provided you keep True Time, which you must be extreamly careful to do, in All Lessons: For Time is
the One half of Musick."

At first sight, Mace seems to be contradicting himself with these three passages, yet I believe he is spot on. I think he means that he wants music to be played in time, not with sloppy rubato all over the place for its own sake, but neither does he want it to be played mechanically with no regard for the mood of the piece. To capture the essential character of a piece of music requires some freedom of interpretation, but done subtly, and in such a way that the music appears to keep good time. I would suggest that Paul O'Dette does precisely that. He can play a piece of dance music so that one's foot taps in sympathy, but he doesn't play mechanically. There may be a little give and take to capture the spirit of a piece, perhaps a breath between sections, without him resorting to the sort of arrhythmic playing I
so dislike.

-o-O-o-

As with Mace, you would have done better to choose a quotation seven pages
on for Frescobaldi, where Donington gives the following (p. 432):

"First, this kind of playing must not be subject to the beat, as we see done in modern Madrigals, which, in spite of their difficulties, are made easier by means of the beat, taking it now slowly, now quickly, and even held in
the air, to match the expressive effects, or the sense of the words."

In this passage, and in the one you quoted, Frescobaldi is talking
specifically about the performance of his toccatas for keyboard, and clearly wants a very free performance. I would suggest that some of the early lute ricercars might be approached in a similar way. If there is any irregularity in the rhythm, it has to be for a purpose though, not just for its own sake.
The meaning of the word "ricercar" can give us a clue - searching out,
research, discovery, exploration - it is as if the performer is trying to discover something through the music, almost as if he is playing the piece for the first time. It is an experiment in music, as he tries now this, now
that, in a succession of different moods. Likewise, I think French
unmeasured preludes would also qualify for some freedom of rhythm, as they
set the scene for the dance pieces to follow.

Although I believe the exploratory sort of ricercar invites some rhythmic freedom, I would not extend this to all pieces which happen to be called ricercar. Some are more polyphonic in character, and a strict tempo is more suitable. I have on my lap a facsimile of Annibale Padovano's Libro primo di Ricercare a 4 Voci (1556). The music is in score for four instruments (or
keyboard playing the lot). If you were to perform these pieces on four
recorders or viols, you would expect them to be in pretty strict time. If there was anything more than just a slight give or take from any of the
players, the others would lose their place. Now, the second of these
ricercars was arranged for solo lute and included by Galilei on page 4 of _Il Fronimo_ (1584). Is there any reason why a lutenist should perform this piece in a completely different way? Should the liberties he takes be any
greater than those taken by a consort of viols, and if so, why?

-o-O-o-

In his latest Dowland CD, Nigel North includes Melancholy Galliard. He plays this slower than other galliards on the CD, understandably because of the title. I tried to measure with a metronome what the difference in speed is between the galliards. With the faster ones, it was possible to come up with an approximate figure, but it was impossible to measure Melancholy Galliard, because the piece kept changing speed. The word "Melancholy" might well suggest slowness, but the word "galliard" should suggest a dance rhythm,
however slow that may be. To quote Donington (p. 383):

"A slow movement may gain more poignancy from being kept well in motion than
from being dragged under the illusion of making the most of it."

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.



----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarosław Lipski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Lute'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:47 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)



Actually Bream is not "old fashioned". This is rather modern attitude - a
need for steady rhythm and sharp accents. In baroque period breaking
chords
was absolutely common practice and thought of as embellishment.
G.Frescobaldi, Toccate 1615 :
"The openings of the toccatas are to be taken adagio and arpeggiando; it
is
the same with suspensions or discords, even in the middle of the work, one
breaks them together, so as not to leave the instrument empty; which
breaking is to be performed at the discretion of the performer"

As far as rhythm is concerned flexibility was the rule:
1/Th. Mace Musick's Monument
"Many Drudge, and take much Pains to Play their Lessons very Perfectly, which when they can do, you will perceive Little Life, or Spirit in them.
They do not labour to find out the Humour, Life, or Spirit of their
lessons."
2/Jean Rousseau, Traite de la Viole 1687
There are people who imagine that imparting the movement is to follow and
keep time; but these are very different matters....."
3/Joachim Quantz, Essay 1752
"The performance should be easy and flexible. However difficult the
passage,
it must be played without stiffness or constraint."
Obviously it involves the problem of borrowing or steeling time. However whatever we do, the question is not- should we do it- but rather - is it
tasteful. And a Good taste is really precious for me.

Jaroslaw






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