Dear Anthony,

Many thanks for your interesting comments.  I am very fond of
Cuthbert Helys's music.  Isn't there an edition from the Lute
Society?  Indeed a dark sounding instrument would be ideal.  And
for Richard Allison's music, which is likewise rather intense (LS
Edition by John Robinson and Bob Spencer)

Of course another possibility for establishing a standard
spelling for Gaultier would indeed be to follow the usage in New
Grove.  It is hard to tell how the editors of Grove established
the main spelling, here, "Gautier."  Probably they p[icked it up
from the CNRS collected editions which use that spelling, which
is also the one in the Name Authority files of the British
Library.  And what about France, home of CNRS?  The standard
spelling there is "Gaultier."<g>  "Go figure."
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 8:10 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [Jacques/James Gaultier/Gotière]
Re: Etymology


| Dear Arthur
| Since we are more lutists than etymologists, I just wanted to
| mention that that Liz Kenny performed an excellent program at
Bale,
| "THE JACOBEAN LUTE - personalities from the mysterious Cuthbert
Hely*
| to the murderous Jacques Gaultier* and Shakespearea Euro 's
in-house
| composer, Robert Johnson. Devised for the Basel Lute series,
February
| 2007"
| (*both were apparently acquaintances of Lord Herbert of
Cherbury,
| Hely might have been his lute tutor, and Lord Herbert may have
been
| involved in negotiating Jacques's exile to England).
| According to my neighbour Miguel Serdoura  this concert was
| excellent. A small part of it can be heard in the CD of the
Lawes'
| songs (http://tinyurl.com/2xvc5j) in which, LK  plays the
Cuthbert
| Hely pieces, on a large multi-ribbed lute (by Andrew
Rutherford, I
| believe) with a dark sound http://tinyurl.com/ypnlbk, and it
seems
| just right for the sombre music of Cuthbert Hely, in the Vieil
Ton.
|
| Variant spellings in the rough order of older to newer
| pronunciation : Gwaltier, Gaultier, Gautier, Gautie, Goutie,
Gootier,
| Got(h)ier, Goti=C3=A8re, (Haultier)
| I agree with your practical idea of taking the Library of
Congress
| authority, under which all the other names will be subsumed for
any
| scholarly work: so  "Gaultier, Jacques", it should be (no doubt
given
| to us by Burwell). Although Groves uses "Gautier" as the
heading
| (perhaps because this is the from in the court records); but
searches
| with Google, do not seem to have this hierarchical structure,
with
| names subsumed under one heading.
| http://phonoarchive.org/grove/G_TOC.htm
| http://phonoarchive.org/grove/Entries/S10756.htm#S10756
|
| L-Vocalization
| However, as more of a phonetician than a lutenist, I would just
like
| to point out that these variants are significant of a
historical
| change and regional variation that had gone on in French, and
not
| arbitrary misspellings in some way. There is not really one
correct
| form, as there were variant regional pronunciations:
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-vocalization
| These variant spellings of the name "Gaultier" to "Gootier", or
| "Gotier", reveal the different stages of a phonetic change
known as L-
| vocalization that had gone on from Latin to early central
French.
| Almost the same process that is occurring to day in London
English in
| which an /l/ sound occurring at the end of a word or before a
| consonant is replaced with a vowel sound, variously transcribed
[=CA=8A]
| or [w]; so that the word "altar" will very often be pronounced
| "awter" (and of course the intermediary "t" can be also
replaced by
| the glottal stop, not so in French), and "milk" will be
pronouced
| [miwk].
| Thus from Latin to old central French the word "alter" (other)
became
| "aultre" (in between from with both [=CA=8A] and [l]) and then
"autre";
| gradually pronounced "outre", and then long open "o" "ootre",
and
| finally "otre".
| (altier, in Modern French, has come from Italian, that did not
| undergo this process).
|
| Names often maintain older fossilized pronunciations (depending
on
| which area the person comes from), the name "Galtier", from
which
| this name was derived, still exists in French today (although
earlier
| Gwaltier seems to be lost), and the form "Gaultier" shows the
| beginning of this process of L vocalization (equivalent of
Gawltier)
| which will first give "Gautier" (Gawtier) with a strong
diphthong,
| and the diphthong will gradually be lost, and we get
milder"Goutier",
| and finally shorter "Gotier".
| A variant "Gwaltier", would be explained by the probability
that like
| the English words "Guard" and "ward" (both coming from
different
| dialects of French), old "gw" was usually simplified to "g" or
to "w"
| according to dialects, thus "gwespa" (wasp) became "wasp"
English,
| "gu=C3=AApe" French, but also "vespa" Italian. "Walter" would
be an
| English variant of this name.
|
| Variation in Proper Names no standardization:
| Anyway searching for references to these variant forms, I found
a
| number of different ones, used by people who must have kown
him. At
| the time, it clearly just did not matter.
|
| In "The Hesperides & Noble Numbers", Robert Herrick (who would
have
| known Gaultier well), likens Henry Lawes' musical skills and
touch to
| "some raptures of rare Gotiere".
| However, perhaps this is to draw a parallel with the name
Laniere,
| which he also had undergo this same stress variation
(Lanier/Lani=C3=A8re).
| Indeed, this "=C3=A8re" variant allows a final stress in
English, which
| might be needed for the meter, but also sounds more French to
English
| ears (the "Bucket" to "Bouquet" syndrome).
|
| "851. TO M. HENRY LAWES, THE EXCELLENT
| COMPOSER OF HIS LYRICS.
| Touch but thy lyre, my Harry, and I hear
| From thee some raptures of the rare Gotiere;
| Then if thy voice commingle with the string,
| I hear in thee rare Laniere to sing;
| Or curious Wilson: tell me, canst thou be
| Less than Apollo, that usurp'st such three?
| Three, unto whom the whole world give applause;
| Yet their three praises praise but one; that's Lawes."
| http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22421/22421-h/ii.html
|
| Herrick, as court poet, would almost certainly have known all
four :
| Nicholas Lanier, French Hugenot, [Lani=C3=A8re, Lasnier] was
apponted
| Musician of the Flutes in 1604. All four musicians (Gaultier,
Lawes,
| Lanier, and John Wilson, lutenist, singer and composer) were
court
| musicians.
|
| Thomas Mace, when talking about Maler lutes, calls him "Mr
Gootiere",
| " There are diversities of Mens Names in Lutes;
| but the Chief Name we most esteem, is Laux Maller, (...)  Two
of
| which Lutes I have seen (pittifull Old,
| Batter'd, Crack'd Things) valued at 100 l. a piece. Mr
Gootiere, the
| Famous Lutenist in His Time, shew'd me One of Them, which the
King
| paid 100 l. for. (...). I have often seen Lutes of three or
four pounds
| price, far more Illustrious and Taking, to a common Eye".
|
| The tone of Mace's text implies Jacque's criticism of antique
lutes.
| If he was himself a lute maker, as is stated in the "program"
of the
| Masque "Britannia Triumphans", where in 1637, he is called
"maker of
| lutes for masques"
| http://tinyurl.com/2kcpcg
| (while in Triumph of Peace, 1634, he is simply called "Musician
in
| masques"), he could well have preferred his own lute
production, and
| could also have been the inventer of the two headed lute, as
| suggested by Burwell.
| I think his name in both Masques, seems to be "Gautier" (and
this is
| perhaps why it is standard in Grove).
|
| Jacques also appears in the list of the Queen's musicians, here
| again, as "Jacques Gautier" from 1630-31, and from 1634-35, but
in
| 1640 just as "Gautier";
| See the interesting article about RICHARD MICO, in CHELYS, THE
| JOURNAL OF THE VIOLA DA GAMBA SOCIETY, Volume 7-1977
| http://www.geocities.com/micogenealogy/richard.html#_ednref86
|
| While, of course, in Burwell, it is as "English Gaultier" on
page 27,
| that we find a Sarbande attributed to him.
| http://tinyurl.com/ywhhyd
| Also under the same name the invention of the two headed lute
is
| attributed to him, a Euro =9CEnglish Gaultier... hath caused
twoe heads to be
| made to the Lute." (on which perhaps the standardization of his
name
| in the Library of Congress, is based).
|
| Nevertheless, in the "official" portrait of him with this
two-headed
| lute, his name has had to undergo the accepted practice of
pseudo
| Latinization as "a Euro `Iacobo Goutero" (interestingly without
"L") and so
| did his engraver's,
| Jan Lievens (Ioannes Livius).
|
| http://83.138.168.41/collection/photo/large/10/PL000010.jpg
|
| a Euro `Iacobo Goutero inter regios Magnae Britanniae Orpheos
et
| Amphiones Lydiae doriae phrygiae testudinis fi dicini et
modulatorum
| principi hanc et penicilli sui tabula in
| aes transscriptam effi ciem Ioannes Laevini fi dae amicitae
| monimentum L.M. consecravit.a Euro '
| Inscribed also in the lower right border a Euro `Ioannis Linius
fecit et
| excudita Euro '.
|
| I wonder how he is subsumed in the British Library.
| Anthony
|
|
| Le 7 mars 08 =C3! 21:23, Arthur Ness a =C3=A9crit :
|
| > Dear Anthony,
| >
| > Thank you for the additional information.  The biting episode
| > was first published (to my knowledge) in a letter to the
editor
| > from James Alsop in the _*Journal; of the American
Musicological
| > Society*_ (1979): 367. Alsop refers to the lutenist as James
| > Gaultier, and in my comments I should probably have changed
it to
| > Jacques Gaultier. The Gaultiers are really a mess because
there
| > are so many of them, and so many variant spellings of their
| > names.  When you go
| > looking for them in an unedited source you need to use each
| > different spelling to get full results.  Apparently he used
the
| > name James Gawltier in
| > England.  But should we use Jacques when refering to his work
in
| > France, and James. in England?  That would create unnecessary
| > confusion, imo.  Certainly in formal writing one needs to be
| > "squeamish."<g>
| >
| > How does one determine the standard spelling?  I would use
the
| > Name Authority files at the Library of Congress.  The files
are
| > used mainly by library cataloguers in order to determine the
main
| > spelling to use in a catalogue.  So "Gaultier, Jacques" might
be
| > the main entry under which all books by him are listed, and
forms
| > of
| > the name like Gautier, Gawltier or Gottier would appear in
the
| > catalogue with a "see" reference, e.g., Gottier, _see_
Gaultier.
| > =====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > To: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
| > <[email protected]>; "Arthur Ness"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 5:53 AM
| > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lutanist mayhem (was) Re: Etymology
| >
| >
| > | Ed and Arthur
| > | This story was told in an interesting article by  Janet
| > Snowman, in
| > | December 2006, APOL LO Academy Pictures On-Line, Robert
Spencer
| > | http://tinyurl.com/239h99
| > | << in 1643 a London surgeon's casebook describe `Mr
Ashberrie
| > (a
| > | lutanist) at night was bitten by Gottier, the French
Luteniste
| > in
| > | Covent Garden, had a piece of his cheek bitten out, an inch
or
| > more
| > | down to the lower jaw. I stiched it and dressed it'.
| > |
| > | Of course this was English Gautier*, but whether one should
| > anglicize
| > | his name from Jacques to James Gautier, I am not sure
(although
| > the
| > | name Gautier  itself, had varied spellings, so I suppose we
| > should
| > | not be too squeamish : << There were a number of French
| > lutenists
| > | named Gauthier, also spelt Gautier, Gaultier, Gothier,
Goutie,
| > | Gautie, Gwaltier, Cautier and Haultier [cf. New Grove].
 >>).
| > | John H Robinson, Newcastle University, April 1997
| > http://tinyurl.com/24cwt2
| > |
| > | This makes it very difficult to look up Gautier with
Google.
| > You do
| > | have to put in most of those variants if you want to find
all
| > the
| > | relevant texts.
| > | (* jean-Marie's mention of the gutar works of Irish Gallot,
| > shows
| > | that this form of "nationalization" is not specific to
| > England).
| > |
| > | Standardization of spelling and also of dictionary
entrances
| > must
| > | have been progressively standardized; and without the
presence
| > of
| > | spellcheckers and onboard dictionaries would soon return to
| > their
| > | random nature. So these variant forms for Lutist should
perhaps
| > be
| > | looked at in the same light. Note that in French, the word
| > luthier
| > | (lit. lutemaker) has been generalized to include makers of
all
| > | stringed instruments.
| > |
| > |  There may well be extenuating circumstances for Gautier's
| > biting
| > | episode (although he was previously wanted for murder in
| > France,
| > | probably because Cardinal Richelieu had banned dueling, in
20
| > years
| > | about 7000 deaths had been caused by this gentle art). Let
us
| > not
| > | forget that in spite of being known as English Gautier,
This
| > French
| > | English Gautier was one of the French English Queen's*
group of
| > | French Catholic musicians, at the height of the English
| > revolution
| > | (1643) when it could not have been too good in England to
be
| > both
| > | French and Catholic. Most of the French musicians had
escaped
| > through
| > | Holland and back to France, so what Jacques was doing here
I am
| > not
| > | sure. (William Lawes was actually shot and killed at the
siege
| > of
| > | Chester in the company of King Charles 1 in 1645).
| > |
| > | To be fair to Jacques Gaultier (and to lutists in general),
the
| > cheek-
| > | biting episode (mentioned above) would have  occurred
around
| > the same
| > | time, the following anecdote is told of the musicians and
| > composers
| > | John Wilson, Harry and Will Lawes, in the manuscript of
Jests
| > and
| > | Stories by Sir Nicholas L'Estrange, which describes one of
| > their
| > | nightly visitations to the local public house:
| > |
| > | They "were at a Taverne one night; Wilson being in the
worst
| > case of
| > | the three, swore he would Quarrel with the next Man he met,
who
| > was a
| > | meere stranger and a sober gentleman; whome he thus
accosted;
| > are not
| > | you a Catholicke? Yes marry I am; Then ya're a Knave says
he;
| > the
| > | Gentlman having passed a little way, stepps backe to him;
and
| > bids
| > | him not to swallow an Error, for says he, I am no
Catholicke:
| > why
| > | then ya're a scurvy Lying Knave sayes Wilson. Upon that out
| > flew
| > | their swords, but the Lawes parted them presently".
| > |
http://www.canterburygreenman.fsnet.co.uk/WilliamLawes.htm
| > |
| > | *Queen Henrietta Maria wife of Charles the 1st, was a
Catholic,
| > but
| > | daughter of Henry the IVth of France and Navarre, who had
been
| > | himself a Protestant, almost murdered in the St.
Bartholomeu's
| > Day
| > | Massacre. To take the French throne he became an official
| > Catholic,
| > | reportedly saying "Paris is well worth a mass"; however, he
was
| > | finally murdered by the Catholic monk Fran=E7ois Ravillac
for
| > being too
| > | soft on protestants.
| > |
| > | Difficult and confusing times. When was life ever simple?
| > | Regards
| > | Anthony
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > | Le 5 mars 08 =E0 01:11, Edward Martin a ecrit :
| > |
| > | > Thanks for the interesting story, Art!
| > | >
| > | > ed
| > | >
| > | > At 10:22 AM 3/4/2008 -0500, Arthur Ness wrote:
| > | >> There was a time when "lutanist" seems to have been the
| > accepted
| > | >> spelling, although it makes me wince every time I see
it.
| > It was
| > | >> a spelling that appeared in very respectable
publications
| > (NY
| > | >> Times, Musical Times, Donna Curry).  Perhaps lasting
into
| > the
| > | >> 1950s and 60s.  I saw the spelling used as late as 1975
in
| > _Early
| > | >> Music_  and JAMS.  In fact, while looking this morning,
I
| > came
| > | >> across the spelling in regard to some lutanist mayhem as
| > | >> described in a 17th century medical casebook quoted in
_JAMS
| > 32
| > | >> (1975): 367:
| > | >>
| > | >>>> Mr. Ashberrie (a lutanist) at night was bitten by
Gottier,
| > | >> the French Luteniste in Covent Garden, had a piece of
his
| > cheek
| > | >> bitten out, an inch or more, on the left side at corner
of
| > the
| > | >> mouth & neither [i.e. nether] lip, down to the lower
part of
| > the
| > | >> jaw. I stiched it and dressed it.<<
| > | >>
| > | >> This is a reference to James Gautier, lutenist to James
I
| > and
| > | >> Charles I, who fled France in 1617 to escape the
| > consequences of
| > | >> a duel.  It seems like an exceptionally large number of
| > lutenists
| > | >> were engaged in violence.  Coming immediately to mind
are S.
| > L.
| > | >> Weiss and Gian Maria
| > | >> Alemani (you don't want to read the description of what
he
| > did to
| > | >> some poor soul in Florence).
| > | >> =====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
| > | >> *  Free Download of the Week from Classical Music
Library:
| > | >>
| > | >> For this week's free download from Classical Music
Library
| > go to
| > | >> my web page
| > | >> and click on Alexander Street Press link:
| > | >>
| > | >> http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
| > | >>
| > | >> *Vaughan Williams'_ Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas
Tallis___*
| > | >> performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra;
Christopher
| > | >> Seaman, conductor. More
| > | >> information about this piece is available on our  music
blog
| > | >> <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.
| > | >>
| > | >> For some free scores, go to:
| > | >>
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
| > | >> ===================================
| > | >>
| > | >> ----- Original Message -----
| > | >> From: "Tony Chalkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > | >> To: <[email protected]>; "G. Crona"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > | >> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:20 AM
| > | >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Etymology
| > | >>
| > | >>
| > | >> | Lutenist and lute-player are fine by me.  "Luthiste"
is
| > French,
| > | >> and Lutanist
| > | >> | is just bad spelling, I think.
| > | >> |
| > | >> | tony
| > | >> | ----- Original Message -----
| > | >> | From: "G. Crona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > | >> | To: <[email protected]>
| > | >> | Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 12:43 PM
| > | >> | Subject: [LUTE] Etymology
| > | >> |
| > | >> |
| > | >> | >I small question.
| > | >> | >
| > | >> | > To describe a person playing the lute, I've come
across:
| > | >> | >
| > | >> | > Lutenist
| > | >> | > Lutist
| > | >> | > Lutanist
| > | >> | > Lute-player
| > | >> | >
| > | >> | > Which is (are) the correct one (s)? All of them?
| > | >> | >
| > | >> | > G.
| > | >> | >
| > | >> | >
| > | >> | >
| > | >> | > To get on or off this list see list information at
| > | >> | >
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
| > | >> | >
| > | >> |
| > | >> |
| > | >> |
| > | >> |
| > | >>
| > | >>
| > | >>
| > | >>
| > | >>
| > | >> --
| > | >> No virus found in this incoming message.
| > | >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
| > | >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.4/1309 -
Release
| > Date:
| > | >> 3/3/2008
| > | >> 6:50 PM
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > Edward Martin
| > | > 2817 East 2nd Street
| > | > Duluth, Minnesota  55812
| > | > e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| > | > voice:  (218) 728-1202
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| > | --
| > |
| >
| >
| >
|
|
| --
|



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