Dear Arthur and all: While on the subject of 17th century luthistes sharing surnames, has anyone sorted out the question of who wrote the music in d-minor tuning attributed to Bocquet? Monique Rollin seemed convinced that it was a woman but apparently there was no shred of evidence to support her claim. Any further facts come to light? Ron Andricohttp://www.mignarda.com> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:18:08 -0400> To: [email protected]> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [Jacques/James Gaultier/Goti=E8re] Re: Etymology > > Dear Anthony,> > Many thanks for your interesting comments. I am very fond of> Cuthbert Helys's music. Isn't there an edition from the Lute> Society? Indeed a dark sounding instrument would be ideal. And> for Richard Allison's music, which is likewise rather intense (LS> Edition by John Robinson and Bob Spencer)> > Of course another possibility for establishing a standard> spelling for Gaultier would indeed be to follow the u! sage in New> Grove. It is hard to tell how the editors of Grove established> the main spelling, here, "Gautier." Probably they p[icked it up> from the CNRS collected editions which use that spelling, which> is also the one in the Name Authority files of the British> Library. And what about France, home of CNRS? The standard> spelling there is "Gaultier."<g> "Go figure."> =====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;> <[email protected]>> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 8:10 AM> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [Jacques/James Gaultier/Goti=E8re]> Re: Etymology> > > | Dear Arthur> | Since we are more lutists than etymologists, I just wanted to> | mention that that Liz Kenny performed an excellent program at> Bale,> | "THE JACOBEAN LUTE - personalities from the mysterious Cuthbert> Hely*> | to the murderous Jacques Gaultier* and Shakespearea Euro 's> in-house> | composer,! Robert Johnson. Devised for the Basel Lute series,> February>! | 2007" > | (*both were apparently acquaintances of Lord Herbert of> Cherbury,> | Hely > might have been his lute tutor, and Lord Herbert may have> been> | involved > in negotiating Jacques's exile to England).> | According to my neighbour > Miguel Serdoura this concert was> | excellent. A small part of it can be > heard in the CD of the> Lawes'> | songs (http://tinyurl.com/2xvc5j) in which, > LK plays the> Cuthbert> | Hely pieces, on a large multi-ribbed lute (by > Andrew> Rutherford, I> | believe) with a dark sound > http://tinyurl.com/ypnlbk, and it> seems> | just right for the sombre music > of Cuthbert Hely, in the Vieil> Ton.> |> | Variant spellings in the rough > order of older to newer> | pronunciation : Gwaltier, Gaultier, Gautier, > Gautie, Goutie,> Gootier,> | Got(h)ier, Goti=C3=A8re, (Haultier)> | I agree > with your practical idea of taking the Library of> Congress> | authority, > under which all the other names will be subsumed for> any> | scholarly work: > so "Gaultier, Jacques", it should be ! (no doubt> given> | to us by Burwell). Although Groves uses "Gautier" as the> heading> | (perhaps because this is the from in the court records); but> searches> | with Google, do not seem to have this hierarchical structure,> with> | names subsumed under one heading.> | http://phonoarchive.org/grove/G_TOC.htm> | http://phonoarchive.org/grove/Entries/S10756.htm#S10756> |> | L-Vocalization> | However, as more of a phonetician than a lutenist, I would just> like> | to point out that these variants are significant of a> historical> | change and regional variation that had gone on in French, and> not> | arbitrary misspellings in some way. There is not really one> correct> | form, as there were variant regional pronunciations:> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-vocalization> | These variant spellings of the name "Gaultier" to "Gootier", or> | "Gotier", reveal the different stages of a phonetic change> known as L-> | vocalization that had gone on from Latin to early central> French! .> | Almost the same process that is occurring to day in Londo! n> Engli sh in> | which an /l/ sound occurring at the end of a word or before a> | consonant is replaced with a vowel sound, variously transcribed> [=CA=8A]> | or [w]; so that the word "altar" will very often be pronounced> | "awter" (and of course the intermediary "t" can be also> replaced by> | the glottal stop, not so in French), and "milk" will be> pronouced> | [miwk].> | Thus from Latin to old central French the word "alter" (other)> became> | "aultre" (in between from with both [=CA=8A] and [l]) and then> "autre";> | gradually pronounced "outre", and then long open "o" "ootre",> and> | finally "otre".> | (altier, in Modern French, has come from Italian, that did not> | undergo this process).> |> | Names often maintain older fossilized pronunciations (depending> on> | which area the person comes from), the name "Galtier", from> which> | this name was derived, still exists in French today (although> earlier> | Gwaltier seems to be lost), and the form "Gaultier" shows the> | begin! ning of this process of L vocalization (equivalent of> Gawltier)> | which will first give "Gautier" (Gawtier) with a strong> diphthong,> | and the diphthong will gradually be lost, and we get> milder"Goutier",> | and finally shorter "Gotier".> | A variant "Gwaltier", would be explained by the probability> that like> | the English words "Guard" and "ward" (both coming from> different> | dialects of French), old "gw" was usually simplified to "g" or> to "w"> | according to dialects, thus "gwespa" (wasp) became "wasp"> English,> | "gu=C3=AApe" French, but also "vespa" Italian. "Walter" would> be an> | English variant of this name.> |> | Variation in Proper Names no standardization:> | Anyway searching for references to these variant forms, I found> a> | number of different ones, used by people who must have kown> him. At> | the time, it clearly just did not matter.> |> | In "The Hesperides & Noble Numbers", Robert Herrick (who would> have> | known Gaultier well), likens Henry ! Lawes' musical skills and> touch to> | "some raptures of rare ! Gotiere" .> | However, perhaps this is to draw a parallel with the name> Laniere,> | which he also had undergo this same stress variation> (Lanier/Lani=C3=A8re).> | Indeed, this "=C3=A8re" variant allows a final stress in> English, which> | might be needed for the meter, but also sounds more French to> English> | ears (the "Bucket" to "Bouquet" syndrome).> |> | "851. TO M. HENRY LAWES, THE EXCELLENT> | COMPOSER OF HIS LYRICS.> | Touch but thy lyre, my Harry, and I hear> | From thee some raptures of the rare Gotiere;> | Then if thy voice commingle with the string,> | I hear in thee rare Laniere to sing;> | Or curious Wilson: tell me, canst thou be> | Less than Apollo, that usurp'st such three?> | Three, unto whom the whole world give applause;> | Yet their three praises praise but one; that's Lawes."> | http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22421/22421-h/ii.html> |> | Herrick, as court poet, would almost certainly have known all> four :> | Nicholas Lanier, French Hugenot, [Lani=C3=A8re, Lasn! ier] was> apponted> | Musician of the Flutes in 1604. All four musicians (Gaultier,> Lawes,> | Lanier, and John Wilson, lutenist, singer and composer) were> court> | musicians.> |> | Thomas Mace, when talking about Maler lutes, calls him "Mr> Gootiere",> | " There are diversities of Mens Names in Lutes;> | but the Chief Name we most esteem, is Laux Maller, (...) Two> of> | which Lutes I have seen (pittifull Old,> | Batter'd, Crack'd Things) valued at 100 l. a piece. Mr> Gootiere, the> | Famous Lutenist in His Time, shew'd me One of Them, which the> King> | paid 100 l. for. (...). I have often seen Lutes of three or> four pounds> | price, far more Illustrious and Taking, to a common Eye".> |> | The tone of Mace's text implies Jacque's criticism of antique> lutes.> | If he was himself a lute maker, as is stated in the "program"> of the> | Masque "Britannia Triumphans", where in 1637, he is called> "maker of> | lutes for masques"> | http://tinyurl.com/2kcpcg> | (while in Trium! ph of Peace, 1634, he is simply called "Musician> in> | masque! s"), he could well have preferred his own lute> production, and> | could also have been the inventer of the two headed lute, as> | suggested by Burwell.> | I think his name in both Masques, seems to be "Gautier" (and> this is> | perhaps why it is standard in Grove).> |> | Jacques also appears in the list of the Queen's musicians, here> | again, as "Jacques Gautier" from 1630-31, and from 1634-35, but> in> | 1640 just as "Gautier";> | See the interesting article about RICHARD MICO, in CHELYS, THE> | JOURNAL OF THE VIOLA DA GAMBA SOCIETY, Volume 7-1977> | http://www.geocities.com/micogenealogy/richard.html#_ednref86> |> | While, of course, in Burwell, it is as "English Gaultier" on> page 27,> | that we find a Sarbande attributed to him.> | http://tinyurl.com/ywhhyd> | Also under the same name the invention of the two headed lute> is> | attributed to him, a Euro =9CEnglish Gaultier... hath caused> twoe heads to be> | made to the Lute." (on which perhaps the standardization of his> name! > | in the Library of Congress, is based).> |> | Nevertheless, in the > "official" portrait of him with this> two-headed> | lute, his name has had > to undergo the accepted practice of> pseudo> | Latinization as "a Euro > `Iacobo Goutero" (interestingly without> "L") and so> | did his engraver's,> > | Jan Lievens (Ioannes Livius).> |> | > http://83.138.168.41/collection/photo/large/10/PL000010.jpg> |> | a Euro > `Iacobo Goutero inter regios Magnae Britanniae Orpheos> et> | Amphiones > Lydiae doriae phrygiae testudinis fi dicini et> modulatorum> | principi hanc > et penicilli sui tabula in> | aes transscriptam effi ciem Ioannes Laevini fi > dae amicitae> | monimentum L.M. consecravit.a Euro '> | Inscribed also in > the lower right border a Euro `Ioannis Linius> fecit et> | excudita Euro '.> > |> | I wonder how he is subsumed in the British Library.> | Anthony> |> |> | > Le 7 mars 08 =C3! 21:23, Arthur Ness a =C3=A9crit :> |> | > Dear Anthony,> | > >> | > Thank you for the additional information. The ! biting episode> | > was first published (to my knowledge) in a! letter to the> editor> | > from James Alsop in the _*Journal; of the American> Musicological> | > Society*_ (1979): 367. Alsop refers to the lutenist as James> | > Gaultier, and in my comments I should probably have changed> it to> | > Jacques Gaultier. The Gaultiers are really a mess because> there> | > are so many of them, and so many variant spellings of their> | > names. When you go> | > looking for them in an unedited source you need to use each> | > different spelling to get full results. Apparently he used> the> | > name James Gawltier in> | > England. But should we use Jacques when refering to his work> in> | > France, and James. in England? That would create unnecessary> | > confusion, imo. Certainly in formal writing one needs to be> | > "squeamish."<g>> | >> | > How does one determine the standard spelling? I would use> the> | > Name Authority files at the Library of Congress. The files> are> | > used mainly by library cataloguers in order to determine the> main> | > spe! lling to use in a catalogue. So "Gaultier, Jacques" might> be> | > the main entry under which all books by him are listed, and> forms> | > of> | > the name like Gautier, Gawltier or Gottier would appear in> the> | > catalogue with a "see" reference, e.g., Gottier, _see_> Gaultier.> | > =====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====> | >> | > ----- Original Message -----> | > From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> | > To: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;> | > <[email protected]>; "Arthur Ness"> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> | > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 5:53 AM> | > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lutanist mayhem (was) Re: Etymology> | >> | >> | > | Ed and Arthur> | > | This story was told in an interesting article by Janet> | > Snowman, in> | > | December 2006, APOL LO Academy Pictures On-Line, Robert> Spencer> | > | http://tinyurl.com/239h99> | > | << in 1643 a London surgeon's casebook describe `Mr> Ashberrie> | > (a> | > | lutanist) at night was bitten by Gottier, the French> Lu! teniste> | > in> | > | Covent Garden, had a piece of his cheek! bitten out, an inch> or> | > more> | > | down to the lower jaw. I stiched it and dressed it'.> | > |> | > | Of course this was English Gautier*, but whether one should> | > anglicize> | > | his name from Jacques to James Gautier, I am not sure> (although> | > the> | > | name Gautier itself, had varied spellings, so I suppose we> | > should> | > | not be too squeamish : << There were a number of French> | > lutenists> | > | named Gauthier, also spelt Gautier, Gaultier, Gothier,> Goutie,> | > | Gautie, Gwaltier, Cautier and Haultier [cf. New Grove].> >>).> | > | John H Robinson, Newcastle University, April 1997> | > http://tinyurl.com/24cwt2> | > |> | > | This makes it very difficult to look up Gautier with> Google.> | > You do> | > | have to put in most of those variants if you want to find> all> | > the> | > | relevant texts.> | > | (* jean-Marie's mention of the gutar works of Irish Gallot,> | > shows> | > | that this form of "nationalization" is not specific to> | > England).> | ! > |> | > | Standardization of spelling and also of dictionary> entrances> | > > must> | > | have been progressively standardized; and without the> presence> > | > of> | > | spellcheckers and onboard dictionaries would soon return to> | > > their> | > | random nature. So these variant forms for Lutist should> > perhaps> | > be> | > | looked at in the same light. Note that in French, the > word> | > luthier> | > | (lit. lutemaker) has been generalized to include > makers of> all> | > | stringed instruments.> | > |> | > | There may well be > extenuating circumstances for Gautier's> | > biting> | > | episode (although > he was previously wanted for murder in> | > France,> | > | probably because > Cardinal Richelieu had banned dueling, in> 20> | > years> | > | about 7000 > deaths had been caused by this gentle art). Let> us> | > not> | > | forget > that in spite of being known as English Gautier,> This> | > French> | > | > English Gautier was one of the French English Queen's*> group of> | > | > French C! atholic musicians, at the height of the English> | > revolutio! n> | > | (1643) when it could not have been too good in England to> be> | > both> | > | French and Catholic. Most of the French musicians had> escaped> | > through> | > | Holland and back to France, so what Jacques was doing here> I am> | > not> | > | sure. (William Lawes was actually shot and killed at the> siege> | > of> | > | Chester in the company of King Charles 1 in 1645).> | > |> | > | To be fair to Jacques Gaultier (and to lutists in general),> the> | > cheek-> | > | biting episode (mentioned above) would have occurred> around> | > the same> | > | time, the following anecdote is told of the musicians and> | > composers> | > | John Wilson, Harry and Will Lawes, in the manuscript of> Jests> | > and> | > | Stories by Sir Nicholas L'Estrange, which describes one of> | > their> | > | nightly visitations to the local public house:> | > |> | > | They "were at a Taverne one night; Wilson being in the> worst> | > case of> | > | the three, swore he would Quarrel with the next Man he m! et,> who> | > was a> | > | meere stranger and a sober gentleman; whome he thus> accosted;> | > are not> | > | you a Catholicke? Yes marry I am; Then ya're a Knave says> he;> | > the> | > | Gentlman having passed a little way, stepps backe to him;> and> | > bids> | > | him not to swallow an Error, for says he, I am no> Catholicke:> | > why> | > | then ya're a scurvy Lying Knave sayes Wilson. Upon that out> | > flew> | > | their swords, but the Lawes parted them presently".> | > |> http://www.canterburygreenman.fsnet.co.uk/WilliamLawes.htm> | > |> | > | *Queen Henrietta Maria wife of Charles the 1st, was a> Catholic,> | > but> | > | daughter of Henry the IVth of France and Navarre, who had> been> | > | himself a Protestant, almost murdered in the St.> Bartholomeu's> | > Day> | > | Massacre. To take the French throne he became an official> | > Catholic,> | > | reportedly saying "Paris is well worth a mass"; however, he> was> | > | finally murdered by the Catholic monk Fran=E7o! is Ravillac> for> | > being too> | > | soft on protestants.> |! > |> | > | Difficult and confusing times. When was life ever simple?> | > | Regards> | > > | Anthony> | > |> | > |> | > |> | > |> | > |> | > | Le 5 mars 08 =E0 01:11, > Edward Martin a ecrit :> | > |> | > | > Thanks for the interesting story, > Art!> | > | >> | > | > ed> | > | >> | > | > At 10:22 AM 3/4/2008 -0500, > Arthur Ness wrote:> | > | >> There was a time when "lutanist" seems to have > been the> | > accepted> | > | >> spelling, although it makes me wince every > time I see> it.> | > It was> | > | >> a spelling that appeared in very > respectable> publications> | > (NY> | > | >> Times, Musical Times, Donna > Curry). Perhaps lasting> into> | > the> | > | >> 1950s and 60s. I saw the > spelling used as late as 1975> in> | > _Early> | > | >> Music_ and JAMS. In > fact, while looking this morning,> I> | > came> | > | >> across the spelling > in regard to some lutanist mayhem as> | > | >> described in a 17th century > medical casebook quoted in> _JAMS> | > 32> | > | >> (1975): 367:> | > | >>> | > > | >>>> ! Mr. Ashberrie (a lutanist) at night was bitten by> Gottier,> | > | >> the French Luteniste in Covent Garden, had a piece of> his> | > cheek> | > | >> bitten out, an inch or more, on the left side at corner> of> | > the> | > | >> mouth & neither [i.e. nether] lip, down to the lower> part of> | > the> | > | >> jaw. I stiched it and dressed it.<<> | > | >>> | > | >> This is a reference to James Gautier, lutenist to James> I> | > and> | > | >> Charles I, who fled France in 1617 to escape the> | > consequences of> | > | >> a duel. It seems like an exceptionally large number of> | > lutenists> | > | >> were engaged in violence. Coming immediately to mind> are S.> | > L.> | > | >> Weiss and Gian Maria> | > | >> Alemani (you don't want to read the description of what> he> | > did to> | > | >> some poor soul in Florence).> | > | >> =====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====> | > | >> * Free Download of the Week from Classical Music> Library:> | > | >>> | > | >> For this week's free download from! Classical Music> Library> | > go to> | > | >> my web page> | ! > | >> a nd click on Alexander Street Press link:> | > | >>> | > | >> http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/> | > | >>> | > | >> *Vaughan Williams'_ Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas> Tallis___*> | > | >> performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra;> Christopher> | > | >> Seaman, conductor. More> | > | >> information about this piece is available on our music> blog> | > | >> <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.> | > | >>> | > | >> For some free scores, go to:> | > | >>> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/> | > | >> ===================================> | > | >>> | > | >> ----- Original Message -----> | > | >> From: "Tony Chalkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> | > | >> To: <[email protected]>; "G. Crona"> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> | > | >> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:20 AM> | > | >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Etymology> | > | >>> | > | >>> | > | >> | Lutenist and lute-player are fine by me. "Luthiste"> is> | > French,> | > | >> and Lutanist> | > | >> | is just! bad spelling, I think.> | > | >> |> | > | >> | tony> | > | >> | ----- Original Message -----> | > | >> | From: "G. Crona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> | > | >> | To: <[email protected]>> | > | >> | Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 12:43 PM> | > | >> | Subject: [LUTE] Etymology> | > | >> |> | > | >> |> | > | >> | >I small question.> | > | >> | >> | > | >> | > To describe a person playing the lute, I've come> across:> | > | >> | >> | > | >> | > Lutenist> | > | >> | > Lutist> | > | >> | > Lutanist> | > | >> | > Lute-player> | > | >> | >> | > | >> | > Which is (are) the correct one (s)? All of them?> | > | >> | >> | > | >> | > G.> | > | >> | >> | > | >> | >> | > | >> | >> | > | >> | > To get on or off this list see list information at> | > | >> | >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html> | > | >> | >> | > | >> |> | > | >> |> | > | >> |> | > | >> |> | > | >>> | > | >>> | > | >>> | > | >>> | > | >>> | > | >> --> | > | >> No virus found in this incoming message.> | > |! >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> | > | >> Version: 7.5.516 / ! Virus Da tabase: 269.21.4/1309 -> Release> | > Date:> | > | >> 3/3/2008> | > | >> 6:50 PM> | > | >> | > | >> | > | >> | > | > Edward Martin> | > | > 2817 East 2nd Street> | > | > Duluth, Minnesota 55812> | > | > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> | > | > voice: (218) 728-1202> | > | >> | > | >> | > | >> | > |> | > |> | > | --> | > |> | >> | >> | >> |> |> | --> |> > > _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.!You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join --
