[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Low tension/Toroidal

[Anthony Hind]

Martyn
	As you will probably know from previous postings, I am very  
interested in this string-type question, and I have given much  
thought to it, which, of course, is no guarantee, and I don't have  
the experience in lute making, and therefore, in lute stringing that  
you obvioulsy have, so please excuse my attempt here, at explaining  
what I have come to understand about this question.

Initially, I was interested in gut strings, because I preferred the  
homogenous sound and the feel that all gut strings, including basses,  
can give you, and vaguely thought they must be more "authentic".
From this point of view, loaded strings, low tension strings, and  
Charles Besnainou's toroidal "catapult" strings (when they are all  
gut) more or less achieve these goals, where full wirewound basses,  
fail.
(Someone may argue that wirewounds have other advantages, but that  
was not my point.)

However, after reading a few papers on the subject, and discussing  
with any specialist who was ready and willing to do so, I became much  
more interested in this historic question.

You mention, the fact that low tensions strings need to be plucked  
near the bridge, as shown by many paintings (and also by marks on  
lute bellies), but this does not form an argument against the other  
two hypotheses, I mentioned above. indeed, the present loaded Venice  
strings need to be played as close, or even closer to the bridge as  
low tension strings do. This is because the inner Venice core is very  
supple, and the loading introduces as sort of pendulum behaviour to  
the string, which does not in anyway behave like a spring, like a  
wirewound does. The same is fairly true of  Charles Besnainou's  
toroidal strings, because of their extraordinary stretchability.

The other clues to the historic string type are the very small  
historic lute holes, which seem to imply very thin string diameters,  
and the contradictory demands of the "equal to touch" string tension,  
which appear to have been applied around the same time that these  
bridge holes were made (see Dowland, Mace, etc). This leads to an  
enthralling paradox, which the loaded string, and the toroidal string  
hypotheses do seem to resolve; but the low tension string hypothesis  
seems to fail on both accounts. Unless, you have very long strings  
indeed, you just can't have a string at a low enough tension to make  
it thin enough to pass through a historic lute hole, and if you lower  
the tension of the basses, you can't achieve the equal to touch tension.

I think it is not by chance that Satoh, who adopts the low tension  
hypothesis, loves long extension Dutch lutes. This does allow him to  
achieve a thinnish string diameter, and a good bass, but also  
shortish stoppable strings.
 I think some of the renewed interest in this lute type comes from  
players who want to use pure Pistoys, but want thinner more  
manageable basses. The longer the bass the thinner it can be.

It is not because the low tension string set-up fails to resolve the  
above contradiction that it is musically a failure.  I am sure, as  
Martin Shepherd has implied, that any method that frees up the  
resonance at the bridge can result in a freer more open sound.  
Indeed, this was exactly what Charles Besnainou set out to deal with,  
when he created his toroidal springy gut ropes (as he explained in a  
recent conference in Belgium).  These are elastic in their length as  
well as flexible laterally. Because of this extreme flexibility, they  
allow the same freedom of movement at the bridge that low tension  
strings do, and a very open sound, but while conforming to the "equal  
tension to touch" principle.
In this special string type, only one element of the rope must go  
through the bridge and  can, therefore, pass through the holes of a   
historic lute. While the whole rope, is double the thickness of the  
single element.
The rope is also pre-tensioned, so the thickness is not as great as  
one would expect. This rope does, therefore, resolve the  
contradiction we have mentioned previously, while also allowing a  
free vibration at the bridge (low impedance?), and the lutist must  
pluck the string closer to the bridge.
Charles did not set out to make a historic string, but rather to try  
to make an ideal bass string (according to his theories), but he has  
found good evidence that such ropes have existed and were both used  
on military catapults from Roman times, and used on bass bowed  
instruments. There are some paintings of lutes that Charles considers  
compatible with a representation of such strings, but the evidence is  
weaker.
Certainly, the evidence of paintings such as the Charles Mouton lute  
show no such ropes, but the short string length that has been  
hypothesized (66,5?), excludes the possibility that low tension  
strings were used, here. There is no way that a 66,5 cm bass strings  
in Pistoy could have a small enough diameter to pass through the  
typical small historic bridge hole diameters and still sound good.  
The strings on such a lute surely had to have a greater density than  
pure gut., and the brown colour, while not being a proof of loading,  
is compatible with what we know of the loading of leather, for example.

It is true that there is no absolute proof of the existence of loaded  
strings (as there are of demi-filé). Indeed, no one has found an old  
loaded string; and no one has found (so far) a text mentioning  
explicitly the existence of the loaded string. However, we do know  
that the technology was used regularly for dyeing silk, leather and  
other materials (there are records for that) and that in the region  
in which the most powerful string guild was based. they could not  
have ignored it.
Daniela, of Aquila has recently shown that this small region of Italy  
was the centre of a web of string makers (similar to that for lutes  
issuing from Fussen, and with just as strict secret practices and  
rules). they certainly would not have published their "recipes". It  
is not so surprising then, that we only find indirect suggestion of  
the existence of these strings. However, when Mace mentions that the  
best Pistoys are the red dyed ones. We should remember, that,  
although silk and leather were loaded with metal salts in the dyeing  
process of that time, the process was never called loading, it was  
called dyeing. I suppose the same thing could almost be said to be  
true about painting. When a painter use a paint charged with a metal  
oxide (cobalt,or what ever) I doubt whether they would have said they  
were "charging", or "loading" the paper, canvas, etc with an oxide,  
they would still have called it painting.

The facts as we know them about "equal tension to touch" and the size  
of lute holes, implies that lute strings either had a higher density  
than pure gut, or they were all of the sort described by Charles B..  
However, paintings such as the Charles Mouton portrait, just don't  
seem to justify that. Of course 80 cm extensions on 12c lutes, and  
much longer ones on Swannecks, could have been  developed to get  
round a penury of loaded strings, or because of a preference for pure  
gut (although that is not proved, it still could have been to obtain  
more sustain), but can you string a Charles Mouton lute of about  
66,5cm with pure Pistoy diapasons and have them thin enough to pass  
through a historic lute hole and still be playable? I for one would  
rather doubt it. I understand, it is very difficult to string such a  
lute in Pistoy, what ever the string tension, and make it playable.
I could be wrong there, but I am certainly ready to learn.
Regards
Anthony

Le 2 juin 08 à 12:30, Martyn Hodgson a écrit :


If significantly lower string tensions are employed than those  
commonly used nowadays, a plain gut high twist bass can sound fine  
without requiring loaded strings (which may, or may not, have  
existed).  Of course one needs to pluck much closer to the bridge  
than is the common modern fashion but seems, from paintings and  
early instructions, to have been much more usual from the early  
17thC when extra courses were being added to lutes.

MH


--- On Mon, 2/6/08, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
To: "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,  
"lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 10:43 AM
Matthias
        This whole thread about the 12c lute interests many of us
for a
number of reasons.
However, just for the moment, let us stay with this
question of the
strings on the Mest lute.
I am not sure whether I have completely grasped your
remarks about
the demi-file strings.

On the Kenneth Sparr pages, I read:
"On the inside of the back is a printed label:
'Raphael Mest in
Fiessen, Imperato / del Misier Michael Hartung in Pa- / dua
me fecit,
Anno 1633'. "
I am not certain whether we should assume it was in its 12c
form at
that date, but there is certainly no reason to consider it
was
baroqued after 1700.
In which case, I would not like to assume that the
demi-file are the
strings that were originally used on that lute. I am not
sure if that
was what you were suggesting
Mathias, but demi-file are only mentioned after 1650, and
don't seem
to have caught on until about 1700, or later.

On the other hand, the basses on the Mest lute are quite
short for a
12c lute, not more than 71mm.
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php?

PID=348
As Rob Mackillop found on his 69mm Maler, pure gut basses
of that
sort of length are very thick, and do present serious
"intonation"
problems with the octave strings and with the trebles.
It seems more likely to me that the Mest lute would have
had loaded
strings, initially, as the colour of these strings seem to
indicate
for this other 12c lute, shown on the Aquila pages you
mention:
http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg
but when this technology was replaced by demi-file, and the
loaded
strings worn out,  the owner at that time could have
changed to demi-
file, as certainly pure gut strings would not have been
ideal.

Some other 12c lutes, such as the Wolf, have up to 80mm
(see K. Sp.),
and some possibly more.
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php?

PIDF7
These models with very long basses could have been more
suitable for
pure gut, or for lesser quality loaded strings, although
they could
also have been developed for more sustain with loaded
strings
(depending on whether the musicans who chose to play the
12c
instrument, revelled in the strong basses that the French
Baroque
musicians seem to have spurned, keeping, in some cases,
only "the
small eleventh", Burwell).

Indeed, Stephen Gottlieb tells me that this Mest lute-type
is not
really successful when strung with pure gut (although this
may not be
just due to the relatively short basses); and he has
preferred to
construct a lute with basses up to 80mm, probably so as to
have
strong, but not over thick, Pistoy basses, but in this case
with a
stoppable string length of about 67mm. This
"composite" lute was
based on the Rauwolf body, and the peg-box arrangement of a
Dutch
painting in Glasgow, see the photos here:
http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A1849

On the other hand, I very much doubt whether such a lute
would be
successful with full wire-wounds, as the basses would then
become far
too thin. I have no idea how demi-file would be on
Stephen's lute.

One possibility, is that the 12c lute (with long basses)
remained
popular in England and Holland, just because good loaded
strings were
not readily available in these countries.
Another possibility is simply that the taste for French
music  under
the influence of The French English Queen, Henrietta-Maria,
was
rather conservative, and that a fashion created in France
(according
to the author of Burwell), but later spurned, was carried
on in
England and Holland. In England this was certainly true for
the
Carolean Masque, which carried on the, by then, decadent
French
Masque form, "Le Ballet =E0 Entree", in which the
Queen had performed
herself, in her youth in France. We must remember that the
Queen
surrounded herself with French musicians, including Jacques
Gaultier,
who may or may not have been the inventor of the 12c lute,
but
certainly played one, and was influential in its diffusion.
http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A112
It is possible that Jacques' name became so strongly
associated with
this lute-type that its invention was attributed to him
(Burwell),
but it in the prgramme for the Masque "Britannia
Trumphans", in 1637,
he is described as "maker of lutes for masques",
so he could have
been more directly involved in its creation.
http://tinyurl.com/2kcpcg

We may also note that he seems to have been an acquaintance
of Mace,
whose "Monument" gives a large place to the 12c
lute, and we learn
from an anecdote recounted by Mace, that if the 12c lute
was spurned
in France, Jacques, may well have derided the new fashion
for old
Bologna lutes, if we imagine the scene related here by
Mace:
  " There are diversities of Mens Names in Lutes;  but
the Chief Name
we most esteem, is Laux Maller, (...)  Two of which Lutes I
have seen
(pittifull Old,Batter'd, Crack'd Things) valued at
100 l. a piece. Mr
Gootiere, the Famous Lutenist in His Time, shew'd me
One of Them,
which the King paid 100 l. for. (...). I have often seen
Lutes of
three or four pounds price, far more Illustrious and
Taking, to a
common Eye".

regards
Anthony






Le 2 juin 08 =E0 00:03, Mathias R=F6sel a ecrit :

Dear Damian,

please do send answers to the list, too, so that other
may get to know
your opinion directly instead of reading it from my
quotes.

"damian dlugolecki"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
It is unfortunate that Mimmo made that grand leap
of illogic.  His
analysis
is normally quite sound.
But in this instance he is stretching the facts to
fit his
hypothesis.

Pls elaborate.

You haven't answered my point about lute
construction.  The advent
of wound
strings had an
effect on the construction of  bowed instruments,
thrust pitch
levels down,
and even made possible
instruments like the viola bastarda or the cello
piccolo da
spalla.  But
during the twilight of the era of the
lute they were still making extended necked lutes.
 This is firm
evidence
that the lute was for all time
strung with gut.

The invention of theorbating (if that is a word) lutes
was
explained as
solution of problems with bass strings. Players wanted
to have
extended
bass registers, so thicker gut strings were needed.
However, there's a
technical limit to making thicker gut strings. So,
extended necks with
second pegboxes were invented so that longer gut
strings could be used
instead of thicker gut strings for the basses.
Does that mean lute players rejected overspun gut
strings once they
were
invented in, say, 1660? Simple answer is, no. And why
should they. Did
you try Mimmo's demi-file''s on a swan
neck? Not bad, eh?

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not here to
evangelize about gut strings.

That's okay with me. I'm into frsh nylgut
strings >8)

telling the truth about the history of the lute,
and if you are
serious
about discovering the sound world
of the lute, you have to explore the possibilities
of gut strings.

Well, telling the truth is a tall order, to tell the
truth (sorry,
couldn't resist), when evidence is lacking. At
least, we have that
Mest
beast with its filthy overspun red-handed strings
still in the
bridge...

Mathias

----- Original Message -----
From: ""Mathias R=F6sel""
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist"
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Cc: "damian dlugolecki"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:58 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c


"damian dlugolecki"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
The fact that it had overspun
basses on it at one
time is not evidence that this is
how it was strung during the
17th
century.

The easiest way would be finding out from when
the strings date.

Overspun strings begin to be used in the
late 17th century, but
I don't
believe that the lute in any of it's
forms
was ever strung with wound or demi filee
strings.

Well, it must have been. That's how the
loose ends were to be found,
sticking in the bridge holes of the Mest lute.

Everything we know about
lute construction right up to the
end of the era of the lute points to
stringing with gut.  Why
continue to
design extended necked lutes of overspun
strings were readily
available
that
met the musical requirments?
Those remnants of wire are not evidence of
anything.

Perhaps you take what Mimmo has to say about
them:
"How do we know that open wound strings
were really used in the 18th
century lutes? One piece of evidence and
several probative elements
point in that direction:     a) The direct
evidence comes from the
pieces of strings on a Lute by Raphael Mest.
Half wound strings
were in
use only in the 18th century and it is hard to
imagine a later
addition
of this particular kind of string on an
instrument that had already
fallen into disuse." (Source:
http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm ,
scroll down almost to the bottom).
--
Mathias

Dear Collected Wisdom,

is there someone on
the list who is willing to share their
experiences
with double headed 12c
lutes and related repertoire? I'm just
about
to
enter that flowery
meadow.

What I'm
interested in is
- choice: What made
you choose that type of lute (that
luthier)?
- measurements: Am I
right in assuming that small mensur
(about
55
cm
VSL) works better?
- inferentially,
luthiers: Who built your instrument and when?
- tunings: which one
do you prefer?

Any comments
appreciated!
--
Mathias



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html