Anthony, I'm by no means trying to argue against loaded strings (in fact I like the idea and am almost convinced), but we need to guard against hasty judgements when there is a possible alternative. Lower tension basses mean, of course, thinner strings and thin enough to go through the small bridge holes (if low enough tension). Regarding our judgement about whether such very low tension basses strings sound satisfactory - perhaps they don't to our modern ears when compared with some other alternatives, but again I think we need to be cautious before rejecting any one hypothesis. For a trial I have strung one of my lutes (a 9 course in the Old tuning) with just plain and high twist gut using v low tension basses (c. 1.5 Kg/Newtons) and must confess I find it hard to come to terms with - the problem is it buggers up playing on 'normal' tension basses on this size lute (say around 2.5 Kg), not to mention the guitar and theorbo, so I've never had a sufficient unbroken run at it. Nevertheless, after a few days it does seem to 'improve'...............
Regarding equal tension across the strings, I would expect the trebles to also be at lower than modern tensions, but not at the same very low equal tension as basses but rather equal 'feel' which allows higher tension thin strings (trebles)than thicker (basses) to feel the same resistance under the fingers. MH --- On Mon, 2/6/08, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Low tension/Toroidal > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "[email protected] Net" > <[email protected]> > Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 3:05 PM > Martyn > As you will probably know from previous postings, I am > very > interested in this string-type question, and I have given > much > thought to it, which, of course, is no guarantee, and I > don't have > the experience in lute making, and therefore, in lute > stringing that > you obvioulsy have, so please excuse my attempt here, at > explaining > what I have come to understand about this question. > > Initially, I was interested in gut strings, because I > preferred the > homogenous sound and the feel that all gut strings, > including basses, > can give you, and vaguely thought they must be more > "authentic". > From this point of view, loaded strings, low tension > strings, and > Charles Besnainou's toroidal "catapult" > strings (when they are all > gut) more or less achieve these goals, where full wirewound > basses, > fail. > (Someone may argue that wirewounds have other advantages, > but that > was not my point.) > > However, after reading a few papers on the subject, and > discussing > with any specialist who was ready and willing to do so, I > became much > more interested in this historic question. > > You mention, the fact that low tensions strings need to be > plucked > near the bridge, as shown by many paintings (and also by > marks on > lute bellies), but this does not form an argument against > the other > two hypotheses, I mentioned above. indeed, the present > loaded Venice > strings need to be played as close, or even closer to the > bridge as > low tension strings do. This is because the inner Venice > core is very > supple, and the loading introduces as sort of pendulum > behaviour to > the string, which does not in anyway behave like a spring, > like a > wirewound does. The same is fairly true of Charles > Besnainou's > toroidal strings, because of their extraordinary > stretchability. > > The other clues to the historic string type are the very > small > historic lute holes, which seem to imply very thin string > diameters, > and the contradictory demands of the "equal to > touch" string tension, > which appear to have been applied around the same time that > these > bridge holes were made (see Dowland, Mace, etc). This leads > to an > enthralling paradox, which the loaded string, and the > toroidal string > hypotheses do seem to resolve; but the low tension string > hypothesis > seems to fail on both accounts. Unless, you have very long > strings > indeed, you just can't have a string at a low enough > tension to make > it thin enough to pass through a historic lute hole, and if > you lower > the tension of the basses, you can't achieve the equal > to touch tension. > > I think it is not by chance that Satoh, who adopts the low > tension > hypothesis, loves long extension Dutch lutes. This does > allow him to > achieve a thinnish string diameter, and a good bass, but > also > shortish stoppable strings. > I think some of the renewed interest in this lute type > comes from > players who want to use pure Pistoys, but want thinner more > > manageable basses. The longer the bass the thinner it can > be. > > It is not because the low tension string set-up fails to > resolve the > above contradiction that it is musically a failure. I am > sure, as > Martin Shepherd has implied, that any method that frees up > the > resonance at the bridge can result in a freer more open > sound. > Indeed, this was exactly what Charles Besnainou set out to > deal with, > when he created his toroidal springy gut ropes (as he > explained in a > recent conference in Belgium). These are elastic in their > length as > well as flexible laterally. Because of this extreme > flexibility, they > allow the same freedom of movement at the bridge that low > tension > strings do, and a very open sound, but while conforming to > the "equal > tension to touch" principle. > In this special string type, only one element of the rope > must go > through the bridge and can, therefore, pass through the > holes of a > historic lute. While the whole rope, is double the > thickness of the > single element. > The rope is also pre-tensioned, so the thickness is not as > great as > one would expect. This rope does, therefore, resolve the > contradiction we have mentioned previously, while also > allowing a > free vibration at the bridge (low impedance?), and the > lutist must > pluck the string closer to the bridge. > Charles did not set out to make a historic string, but > rather to try > to make an ideal bass string (according to his theories), > but he has > found good evidence that such ropes have existed and were > both used > on military catapults from Roman times, and used on bass > bowed > instruments. There are some paintings of lutes that Charles > considers > compatible with a representation of such strings, but the > evidence is > weaker. > Certainly, the evidence of paintings such as the Charles > Mouton lute > show no such ropes, but the short string length that has > been > hypothesized (66,5?), excludes the possibility that low > tension > strings were used, here. There is no way that a 66,5 cm > bass strings > in Pistoy could have a small enough diameter to pass > through the > typical small historic bridge hole diameters and still > sound good. > The strings on such a lute surely had to have a greater > density than > pure gut., and the brown colour, while not being a proof of > loading, > is compatible with what we know of the loading of leather, > for example. > > It is true that there is no absolute proof of the existence > of loaded > strings (as there are of demi-filé). Indeed, no one has > found an old > loaded string; and no one has found (so far) a text > mentioning > explicitly the existence of the loaded string. However, we > do know > that the technology was used regularly for dyeing silk, > leather and > other materials (there are records for that) and that in > the region > in which the most powerful string guild was based. they > could not > have ignored it. > Daniela, of Aquila has recently shown that this small > region of Italy > was the centre of a web of string makers (similar to that > for lutes > issuing from Fussen, and with just as strict secret > practices and > rules). they certainly would not have published their > "recipes". It > is not so surprising then, that we only find indirect > suggestion of > the existence of these strings. However, when Mace mentions > that the > best Pistoys are the red dyed ones. We should remember, > that, > although silk and leather were loaded with metal salts in > the dyeing > process of that time, the process was never called loading, > it was > called dyeing. I suppose the same thing could almost be > said to be > true about painting. When a painter use a paint charged > with a metal > oxide (cobalt,or what ever) I doubt whether they would have > said they > were "charging", or "loading" the > paper, canvas, etc with an oxide, > they would still have called it painting. > > The facts as we know them about "equal tension to > touch" and the size > of lute holes, implies that lute strings either had a > higher density > than pure gut, or they were all of the sort described by > Charles B.. > However, paintings such as the Charles Mouton portrait, > just don't > seem to justify that. Of course 80 cm extensions on 12c > lutes, and > much longer ones on Swannecks, could have been developed > to get > round a penury of loaded strings, or because of a > preference for pure > gut (although that is not proved, it still could have been > to obtain > more sustain), but can you string a Charles Mouton lute of > about > 66,5cm with pure Pistoy diapasons and have them thin enough > to pass > through a historic lute hole and still be playable? I for > one would > rather doubt it. I understand, it is very difficult to > string such a > lute in Pistoy, what ever the string tension, and make it > playable. > I could be wrong there, but I am certainly ready to learn. > Regards > Anthony > > Le 2 juin 08 à 12:30, Martyn Hodgson a écrit : > > > > > If significantly lower string tensions are employed > than those > > commonly used nowadays, a plain gut high twist bass > can sound fine > > without requiring loaded strings (which may, or may > not, have > > existed). Of course one needs to pluck much closer to > the bridge > > than is the common modern fashion but seems, from > paintings and > > early instructions, to have been much more usual from > the early > > 17thC when extra courses were being added to lutes. > > > > MH > > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/6/08, Anthony Hind > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed > 12c/loaded/Demi-filé > >> To: "Mathias Rösel" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > >> "[email protected] Net" > <[email protected]> > >> Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 10:43 AM > >> Matthias > >> This whole thread about the 12c lute interests > many of us > >> for a > >> number of reasons. > >> However, just for the moment, let us stay with > this > >> question of the > >> strings on the Mest lute. > >> I am not sure whether I have completely grasped > your > >> remarks about > >> the demi-file strings. > >> > >> On the Kenneth Sparr pages, I read: > >> "On the inside of the back is a printed > label: > >> 'Raphael Mest in > >> Fiessen, Imperato / del Misier Michael Hartung in > Pa- / dua > >> me fecit, > >> Anno 1633'. " > >> I am not certain whether we should assume it was > in its 12c > >> form at > >> that date, but there is certainly no reason to > consider it > >> was > >> baroqued after 1700. > >> In which case, I would not like to assume that the > >> demi-file are the > >> strings that were originally used on that lute. I > am not > >> sure if that > >> was what you were suggesting > >> Mathias, but demi-file are only mentioned after > 1650, and > >> don't seem > >> to have caught on until about 1700, or later. > >> > >> On the other hand, the basses on the Mest lute are > quite > >> short for a > >> 12c lute, not more than 71mm. > >> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? > >> > >> PID=348 > >> As Rob Mackillop found on his 69mm Maler, pure gut > basses > >> of that > >> sort of length are very thick, and do present > serious > >> "intonation" > >> problems with the octave strings and with the > trebles. > >> It seems more likely to me that the Mest lute > would have > >> had loaded > >> strings, initially, as the colour of these strings > seem to > >> indicate > >> for this other 12c lute, shown on the Aquila pages > you > >> mention: > >> http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg > >> but when this technology was replaced by > demi-file, and the > >> loaded > >> strings worn out, the owner at that time could > have > >> changed to demi- > >> file, as certainly pure gut strings would not have > been > >> ideal. > >> > >> Some other 12c lutes, such as the Wolf, have up to > 80mm > >> (see K. Sp.), > >> and some possibly more. > >> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? > >> > >> PIDF7 > >> These models with very long basses could have been > more > >> suitable for > >> pure gut, or for lesser quality loaded strings, > although > >> they could > >> also have been developed for more sustain with > loaded > >> strings > >> (depending on whether the musicans who chose to > play the > >> 12c > >> instrument, revelled in the strong basses that the > French > >> Baroque > >> musicians seem to have spurned, keeping, in some > cases, > >> only "the > >> small eleventh", Burwell). > >> > >> Indeed, Stephen Gottlieb tells me that this Mest > lute-type > >> is not > >> really successful when strung with pure gut > (although this > >> may not be > >> just due to the relatively short basses); and he > has > >> preferred to > >> construct a lute with basses up to 80mm, probably > so as to > >> have > >> strong, but not over thick, Pistoy basses, but in > this case > >> with a > >> stoppable string length of about 67mm. This > >> "composite" lute was > >> based on the Rauwolf body, and the peg-box > arrangement of a > >> Dutch > >> painting in Glasgow, see the photos here: > >> > http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A1849 > >> > >> On the other hand, I very much doubt whether such > a lute > >> would be > >> successful with full wire-wounds, as the basses > would then > >> become far > >> too thin. I have no idea how demi-file would be on > >> Stephen's lute. > >> > >> One possibility, is that the 12c lute (with long > basses) > >> remained > >> popular in England and Holland, just because good > loaded > >> strings were > >> not readily available in these countries. > >> Another possibility is simply that the taste for > French > >> music under > >> the influence of The French English Queen, > Henrietta-Maria, > >> was > >> rather conservative, and that a fashion created in > France > >> (according > >> to the author of Burwell), but later spurned, was > carried > >> on in > >> England and Holland. In England this was certainly > true for > >> the > >> Carolean Masque, which carried on the, by then, > decadent > >> French > >> Masque form, "Le Ballet =E0 Entree", in > which the > >> Queen had performed > >> herself, in her youth in France. We must remember > that the > >> Queen > >> surrounded herself with French musicians, > including Jacques > >> Gaultier, > >> who may or may not have been the inventor of the > 12c lute, > >> but > >> certainly played one, and was influential in its > diffusion. > >> > http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A112 > >> It is possible that Jacques' name became so > strongly > >> associated with > >> this lute-type that its invention was attributed > to him > >> (Burwell), > >> but it in the prgramme for the Masque > "Britannia > >> Trumphans", in 1637, > >> he is described as "maker of lutes for > masques", > >> so he could have > >> been more directly involved in its creation. > >> http://tinyurl.com/2kcpcg > >> > >> We may also note that he seems to have been an > acquaintance > >> of Mace, > >> whose "Monument" gives a large place to > the 12c > >> lute, and we learn > >> from an anecdote recounted by Mace, that if the > 12c lute > >> was spurned > >> in France, Jacques, may well have derided the new > fashion > >> for old > >> Bologna lutes, if we imagine the scene related > here by > >> Mace: > >> " There are diversities of Mens Names in > Lutes; but > >> the Chief Name > >> we most esteem, is Laux Maller, (...) Two of > which Lutes I > >> have seen > >> (pittifull Old,Batter'd, Crack'd Things) > valued at > >> 100 l. a piece. Mr > >> Gootiere, the Famous Lutenist in His Time, > shew'd me > >> One of Them, > >> which the King paid 100 l. for. (...). I have > often seen > >> Lutes of > >> three or four pounds price, far more Illustrious > and > >> Taking, to a > >> common Eye". > >> > >> regards > >> Anthony > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Le 2 juin 08 =E0 00:03, Mathias R=F6sel a ecrit : > >> > >>> Dear Damian, > >>> > >>> please do send answers to the list, too, so > that other > >> may get to know > >>> your opinion directly instead of reading it > from my > >> quotes. > >>> > >>> "damian dlugolecki" > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > >>>> It is unfortunate that Mimmo made that > grand leap > >> of illogic. His > >>>> analysis > >>>> is normally quite sound. > >>>> But in this instance he is stretching the > facts to > >> fit his > >>>> hypothesis. > >>> > >>> Pls elaborate. > >>> > >>>> You haven't answered my point about > lute > >> construction. The advent > >>>> of wound > >>>> strings had an > >>>> effect on the construction of bowed > instruments, > >> thrust pitch > >>>> levels down, > >>>> and even made possible > >>>> instruments like the viola bastarda or the > cello > >> piccolo da > >>>> spalla. But > >>>> during the twilight of the era of the > >>>> lute they were still making extended > necked lutes. > >> This is firm > >>>> evidence > >>>> that the lute was for all time > >>>> strung with gut. > >>> > >>> The invention of theorbating (if that is a > word) lutes > >> was > >>> explained as > >>> solution of problems with bass strings. > Players wanted > >> to have > >>> extended > >>> bass registers, so thicker gut strings were > needed. > >> However, there's a > >>> technical limit to making thicker gut strings. > So, > >> extended necks with > >>> second pegboxes were invented so that longer > gut > >> strings could be used > >>> instead of thicker gut strings for the basses. > >>> Does that mean lute players rejected overspun > gut > >> strings once they > >>> were > >>> invented in, say, 1660? Simple answer is, no. > And why > >> should they. Did > >>> you try Mimmo's demi-file''s on a > swan > >> neck? Not bad, eh? > >>> > >>>> Don't get me wrong. I'm not here > to > >> evangelize about gut strings. > >>> > >>> That's okay with me. I'm into frsh > nylgut > >> strings >8) > >>> > >>>> telling the truth about the history of the > lute, > >> and if you are > >>>> serious > >>>> about discovering the sound world > >>>> of the lute, you have to explore the > possibilities > >> of gut strings. > >>> > >>> Well, telling the truth is a tall order, to > tell the > >> truth (sorry, > >>> couldn't resist), when evidence is > lacking. At > >> least, we have that > >>> Mest > >>> beast with its filthy overspun red-handed > strings > >> still in the > >>> bridge... > >>> > >>> Mathias > >>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: ""Mathias > R=F6sel"" > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>> To: "Lutelist" > >> <[email protected]> > >>>> Cc: "damian dlugolecki" > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:58 PM > >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> "damian dlugolecki" > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > >>>>>>>> The fact that it had > overspun > >> basses on it at one > >>>>>>>> time is not evidence that > this is > >> how it was strung during the > >>>>>>>> 17th > >>>>>>>> century. > >>>>> > >>>>> The easiest way would be finding out > from when > >> the strings date. > >>>>> > >>>>>> Overspun strings begin to be used > in the > >> late 17th century, but > >>>>>> I don't > >>>>>> believe that the lute in any of > it's > >> forms > >>>>>> was ever strung with wound or demi > filee > >> strings. > >>>>> > >>>>> Well, it must have been. That's > how the > >> loose ends were to be found, > >>>>> sticking in the bridge holes of the > Mest lute. > >>>>> > >>>>>> Everything we know about > >>>>>> lute construction right up to the > >>>>>> end of the era of the lute points > to > >> stringing with gut. Why > >>>>>> continue to > >>>>>> design extended necked lutes of > overspun > >> strings were readily > >>>>>> available > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> met the musical requirments? > >>>>>> Those remnants of wire are not > evidence of > >> anything. > >>>>> > >>>>> Perhaps you take what Mimmo has to say > about > >> them: > >>>>> "How do we know that open wound > strings > >> were really used in the 18th > >>>>> century lutes? One piece of evidence > and > >> several probative elements > >>>>> point in that direction: a) The > direct > >> evidence comes from the > >>>>> pieces of strings on a Lute by Raphael > Mest. > >> Half wound strings > >>>>> were in > >>>>> use only in the 18th century and it is > hard to > >> imagine a later > >>>>> addition > >>>>> of this particular kind of string on > an > >> instrument that had already > >>>>> fallen into disuse." (Source: > >> http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm , > >>>>> scroll down almost to the bottom). > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Mathias > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Dear Collected > Wisdom, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> is there > someone on > >> the list who is willing to share their > >>>>>>>>>>> experiences > >>>>>>>>>>> with double > headed 12c > >> lutes and related repertoire? I'm just > >>>>>>>>>>> about > >>>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>> enter that > flowery > >> meadow. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> What I'm > >> interested in is > >>>>>>>>>>> - choice: What > made > >> you choose that type of lute (that > >>>>>>>>>>> luthier)? > >>>>>>>>>>> - > measurements: Am I > >> right in assuming that small mensur > >>>>>>>>>>> (about > >>>>>>>>>>> 55 > >>>>>>>>>>> cm > >>>>>>>>>>> VSL) works > better? > >>>>>>>>>>> - > inferentially, > >> luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? > >>>>>>>>>>> - tunings: > which one > >> do you prefer? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Any comments > >> appreciated! > >>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>> Mathias > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> To get on or off this list see list > information at > >>> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> > >> -- > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > > A Smarter Email > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
