--- David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think the good Jazz transcriptions are pretty
> good, and there are
> lots of them, but would you want to live in an
> imaginary world with
> no Jazz recordings?
> If you did, would you prefer the transcriptions to
> no Jazz at all?
>
I'd prefer a world with attempted jazz.
>
> I think the issue for me, is that when I coach a
> French baroque music
> ensemble at music workshops, I find that the
> students have not
> studied the ornaments, they can't distinguish
> between coule and
> pointe, they don't know that there are two types of
> inegal, one which
> is not based on rhythm, and so on and so on. The
> singers can't sing
> trills. And I find the same thing in professional
> recordings, where
> the longest port de voix is at the end of the piece,
> and the grace
> notes are backwards, the arpeggios upside down, even
> though the
> ornament chart is in the front of the book.
> This is all basic stuff. why don't they know it?
I'm not disagreeing with you on the importance of
investigating these matters, but, just to play Devil's
Advocate - If a performer isn't doing all of these
things "right," does it mean that he/she isn't doing
French style? Does a blues guitarist have to play
every blues guitar cliche to be playing blues guitar?
If a tree falls in the woods and no is there to hear
it, do we know what kind of inegales it produced???
;-)
>
> I'm of the "read it and then throw it away, if you
> like" school.
> dt
>
>
> dt
>
>
> At 06:20 AM 6/20/2008, you wrote:
> >David, et al,
> >
> >
> > Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that a few
> hundred
> >years from now NO audio recordings of jazz have
> >survived, just some good written descriptions,
> "teach
> >yourself to play jazz saxophone/guitar/tuba" method
> >books, and a fair number of lead sheets. What kind
> of
> >jazz would our descendants really be playing
> without
> >ever having heard it? What would a 20th century
> >jazzer, zapped into the future, think of it? (I
> can
> >imagine that he or she might find the future jazz
> >stiff and academic, lacking imagination - maybe
> even
> >"all wrong." I doubt our jazzer would be very
> >impressed.)
> >
> > The jazzers in the future would probably be
> able
> >to re-construct the gist of it, but would any of
> the
> >future folks ever gain the ease and suppleness of
> >style - "the feel" - that a contemporary jazz
> master
> >intuitively understands and ineffably puts in
> >practice? Maybe. But they'd be unlikely to get
> there
> >just by following the steps in something like a
> "Play
> >just like John Coltrane" book.
> >
> > That's us with the French style. While I
> think
> >David's points are valid and it is important to
> >investigate all of these, there is a danger here.
> >Style in any form of music is possible to decribe
> in
> >writing but utterly impossible to teach solely in
> >writing. Its very easy to trick oneself into
> >believing that if you play French-style elements A,
> B
> >and C the way that writers X, Y, and Z have
> described
> >them that you're actually playing the style. The
> old
> >ones didn't learn French style from books,
> afterall.
> >
> >
> >Chris - prepared for time travel.
> >
> >--- David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > That's a terrific question for which there is no
> > > easy answer.
> > > Here's a few basic starting points:
> > > 1. It is different at different times--don't
> > > conflate the different genres
> > > 2. Inegal is the most misused and most
> > > misunderstood. Read the
> > > original sources, don't rely on secondary
> sources.
> > > At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe,
> and
> > > distinguish
> > > rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this
> is
> > > where it always goes wrong.
> > > 3. Read up on the "gout"
> > > 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2
> or
> > > 3, some know half
> > > a dozen, few know them all.
> > > You need to know at least a dozen, to put an
> > > arbitrary number on it.
> > > 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the
> starting
> > > note, the
> > > repetition, and the escape. Most people don't
> play
> > > their trills
> > > right, or play them "evenly".
> > > 6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the
> first
> > > note of the
> > > trill as a starting point--the grace note is the
> > > long note, not the
> > > other way around
> > > 7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and
> > > final cadential
> > > trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often
> at
> > > the end, not the
> > > other way around.
> > > 8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the
> agreements,
> > > especially for
> > > the port de voix, the ornament which is most
> often
> > > performed
> > > backwards (enough here for a separate post)
> > > 9. Also read the following which describes the
> > > actual ornaments used
> > > in Rameau's time:
> > >
> > > Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina
> > > Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period.
> > > (Paris:
> > > Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In
> French.
> > > See RILM
> > > 1987-00887-bs. Collection: Jean-Philippe
> Rameau
> > >
> > > 10. You are right about the language, lots to
> > > investigate there.
> > > 11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasured
> > > preludes for
> > > harpsichord, then arrange them for lute. A new
> take
> > > on stile brise.
> > >
> > > dt
> > >
> > >
> > > At 12:35 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote:
> > > >I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the
> > > "French style" of
> > > >Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile
> > > brise, notes inegall
> > > >etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient
> > > explanations to
> > > >convey the French Baroque. It seems to me
> there's
> > > more to it than
> > > >that. Are there, for example, considerations
> in
> > > the French style
> > > >that have to do with the cadences and general
> kinds
> > > of rhythms of the
>
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