When you read Neumann--which is a good thing to do (a chapter at a time) it is very important to separate out his own comments from his examples. So this quote that you cite "With that opening chord, an appogiatura on the root would obscure and confuse the recognition of the key. And that's not what ornaments are generally supposed to serve as."
(I should check the citation, the phraseology seems odd...) But in any case it is a good example of just adding on a layer of opinion.--you can safely ingore it when it is not directly supported. In fact, an appoggiatura on the root is not uncommon, and does not obscure anything. Charpentier, in fact, specifically writes the figure "Sharp eight"--and there are examples from many different styles, with many different harmonic implications. Lastly, the ninth chord is in itself a permanent appoggiatura, and the 9th strengthens the root--it is a very clear and forceful chord. Pieces beginning on a ninth chord go back to the middle ages, like "pas de tor" of Machaut. dt At 07:44 PM 1/31/2009, you wrote: >Dear Mathias, > > >On 2009-02-01, at 00:23, Mathias R=F6sel wrote: > >>Dear Jerzy, >> >>checking the source would be great, but unfortunately I share your >>plight, not owning a copy or facsimile of Vm7 6214. I have to rely on >>the CNRS edition. >> >>I wasn't familiar with the dating by Rave. The sisters Bocquet >>flourished during the 1640ies, so there are some 30 years between this >>copy and its possible authors. 30 years of change in style and >>aesthetics... >> >>I wasn't looking for the one and only appropiate execution of commas. > >The one and only appropiate execution shouldn't exist in music, and =20 >best if we end up with different solutions! For the welfare of United =20= > >Colours of B... aroque Music. > >>I'm suspicious that what I was actually looking for, was some support >>for the execution of commas as simple trills. > >Here is a salvation: >If the music was by or for the Bocquets, then Mersenne (1635/6) =20 >solves the problem. In an English translation (Martinus Nijhoff /The =20 >Hague 1957 /repr. 1964) on page 107 he says: > >IV. On the ornamentation. >=85=85=85 >Now the one which is formed in this fashion: "," is called =93shake=94 =20= > >ordinarily, and most people use no other character to express all the =20= > >different sorts [[JZ: sic!, meaning both upper and lower auxiliary, =20 >with two or more notes?]]; that is why I have not wished to change =20 >it, since it is familiar to everyone, so as not to use any novelty if =20= > >it is not useful. But there are still other ornamentations which they =20= > >call _accens plaintifs_, _martelemens_, _verves cassez_, and =20 >_battemens_, as we shall see at the end of this treatise. [[JZ: now --=20= > > >]] As for the first marked by this comma and used on the open =20 >string, it is necessary to consider two things for executing it well, =20= > >that is, that the finger tip of the left hand, which ought to make =20 >this ornamentation, be well upon the string on which it is to be made =20= > >and that the finger not be lifted from above the sad string, so that =20 >one perceives only that it has been played by the right hand. [...] >If this ornamentation is found at another letter than an "a" as is =20 >seen here, the first finger of the left hand must [...] be place =20 >above the fret "d", [...] and form the ornamentation of the little =20 >finger above the fret "f". [...] > >For me it is a clear description of your "simple trill" starting from =20= > >the main note. However I personally don't like the word "trill" which =20= > >is for me a modern passkey for to great variety of historical =20 >ornaments. But I have no access to original Latin or French. I cut =20 >out all Mersennes painfull divagations whether to play one or two =20 >semiton second in the ornament. > >But now, in the light of this, I'd have another problem -- what to do =20= > >with the next note (only melodic), also with the come after it. Shall =20= > >we play too a "simple trill" or appogiatura from above (which I never =20= > >liked in such situations) or perhaps from below, if Mersenne allowes =20 >the coma "to express all the different sorts" of ornaments -- ? > >But if the source is late (say 1680) and the ornamental signs are =20 >from Brossard rather (or understood his way) then I wouldn't be quite =20= > >sure about the "simple trill" from the main note. Now maybe DGautier, =20= > >Gallot or Mouton is a better prompter -- ? > >And what if a piece be called "La Belle Homicide" and found in the =20 >Augsburg fantastic JBHagen Collection, what is actually the case with =20= > >"the Beautifull Criminal" -- ?! > >A Horror !!! We'd have to study Leopold Mozart. > >>Not as a rule, and by far not at all places. Just e. g. with the =20 >>opening >>chord of allemande #7. I was seeking liberation from the rule that >>baroque trills, and French baroque trills in particular, are always to >>be preceded by appogiature. > >If I remember well, this splinter sits in the a.. from the beginning =20 >of modern research on historicall ornamentation. There are people who =20= > >cannot imagine a baroque "trill" without an appogiatura from above or =20= > >below. On the other side perhaps is Frederick Neumann (Ornamentation =20 >in baroque and post baroque music: With Special Emphasis on J. S. =20 >Bach, 1983) who's shown good number of very nice exceptions and in =20 >fact, for some, definitely broke the magic rule. > >>With that opening chord, an appogiatura on the root would obscure and >>confuse the recognition of the key. And that's not what ornaments are >>generally supposed to serve as. > >As much as I like Neumann, I personally enjoy obscuring and =20 >confusing ;-) and in such a simplistic music as this, in a way, the =20 >flourishes and other "personalities" would for me be the last weapon =20 >to ...bring it to life. But this is only me. > >>>some sort of ornamental dissonace at the very begining. At the first >>>chord of your Allemande (7) section B, there is also >>>'something' (inverted mordent?) which creates 'harmonic confusion'. >>>Similar coma at the first chord have also the Sarabande (18) and >>>'Autre facon' (19)... &ct. >> >>With these two, I have less difficulties, as the comma affects the 5th >>above the root. If executed as an appogiatura, the opening chord is a >>first inversion, turning back into the basic form which then turns =20 >>into >>a leading major 6th (f-e-f sharp above A). That is playful but not >>ubscuring IMHO. > >But here you have a different sign, a cross, which can be an inverted =20= > >mordent or appogiatura from below -- I'd like the last one much =20 >here! ...But first I'd have to look at Mersenne again ;-))) > >>>remember, the music have to please, not cause a headache, even the >>>'historical music' ;-)) >> >>YES, wholeheartedly agreed. >> >>Mathias > >Jurek >__________ > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
