Dear David,
A pity, I would have liked to find out what you disagree with.
It is indeed a secondary source, but it contains a great deal of original
source material and the online access to audio files of the various
recordings that are mentioned in the text is a great feature.
Listening to Joseph Joachim's performance of Bach in 1903, without any
noticeable vibrato and then a performance of the same piece by Menuhin 32
years later with continuous vibrato is amazing. Something happened in those
32 years. If Joachim was typical of 19th century playing then the extreme
vibrato is a fairly short fashion in the grand scale of things.
I think it is an amazing book that dares to raise some interesting questions
and I am surprised it is not standard reading for any early music performer.
But maybe it is just too spicy....
All the best
Mark
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: David Tayler [mailto:[email protected]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Februar 2009 23:11
An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Haynes Book, was French trill?
Well, I don't really want to go into a critique
of a book or books in a public forum. I just have a different opinion.
And I don't think people play more carefully
either. They just play better. I don't think
recordings have had a big impact on the way people play live music.
I record concerts all the time--most of the
professionals don't listen to them and say, wow,
I have to be more careful. And if they do
listen, they say, hey I played outta tune in bar 12, gotta fix that.
I don't call that being careful, exactly, because
that is exactly the kind of thing we say in rehearsal.
Possibly, some people are objecting to the modern
baroque orchestra standard which is sort of a
"crack a note and you are out" mindset. I can
relate to that. I live with that every day,
because I'm play these gigs every day. But I can
also imagine that it was the same back then.
The competition is higher, and will get higher
still. The winds players I work with set an
awesome standard, whether it is trumpet,
recorder, oboe or whatever. We didn't have
players like that in the 60s and 70s, I guarantee you.
And they aren't overly careful, or safer, or
uniform, they're just darn good. And they have
artistic integrity of the highest professional standard.
dt
>On what points do you not agree with Mr. Haynes?
>
>He doesn't say that people play worse, but that they they play safer and in
>a more uniform style, since the rise of recordings. This is a general
>classical music thing and not about lute playing in particular.
>
>If that is the case then this change in style could have a huge impact on
>the way that we think about performing pre-20th century music.
>
>As to if what we are doing is modern or new, I think that is mere wordplay,
>ask someone outside our little world and they will probably burst out into
>laughter at the mere question :) I do not know of any HIP performer who has
>ever claimed to be able to perfectly reconstruct a period style or be
>completely authentic...
>
>Wait.... one person is claiming that (name removed to avoid flame war) his
>latest promo text....
>
>"XXX treats the lute as the real forerunner to the modern guitar, playing
>with a style at once completely authentic and thoroughly revolutionary.
>Newly signed to XXXX Records in London, he will record his first album this
>year, and it will be released in 2008"
>
>So maybe we are all wrong, it is possible to be "completely authentic"....
>
>I just wanted to recommend a good book, I think it is worth a read.
>
>Anyway I am off to watch the latest episode of Battlestar Gallactica, now
>that is new and modern.......
>
>All the best
>Mark
>
>-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: David Tayler [mailto:[email protected]]
>Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Februar 2009 10:04
>An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
>Betreff: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
>
>I don't agree with Mr Haynes, but it doesn't
>matter, I use primary sources. Why use a secondary source?
>As for recording changing the way people play,
>that simply can't be true, because the players
>are getting better--if they were just learning
>three notes at a time to squeeze through a
>recording, they would be getting worse.
>Even the youtube videos are getting better in the
>short amount of time they have been around.
>Of course there will always be players like that
>use a thousand edits, and have been so for nearly
>thirty years, and there are more of them, alas,
>in the lute world, but the best players are much better than those
players.
>And we are really talking about a reasonably small number.
>As long as we have live concerts, there is a big reality check.
>
>dt
>
>
>At 12:42 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote:
> >The question is what do you mean by "old fashioned"?
> >I am sure that most mainstream classical players would see their playing
as
> >old fashioned in a sense, going back to Beethoven maybe in spirit back to
> >Bach, but as Haynes points out probably the biggest change in the
classical
> >musical playing style came with the advent of recording. It is not HIP
vs.
> >romantic performance, romantic players probably played closer to what HIP
> >players would condone, the big change came with the rise of recording.
> >
> >Personally I don't see much point in your one note out of context, but in
> >the classical recording world it probably fits, as most recordings are
> >edited together from thousands of takes.
> >
> >As far as deconstruction goes, I think we can learn a lot from it.
> >I read yesterday in "Deconstructions - A User's Guide by Nicholas Royle",
> >something that is food for thought - "We must remain open to the scrutiny
>of
> >the improper". There are things in Bruce Haynes book that I am sure will
be
> >uncomfortable for some people in the early music world, they may even
think
> >them improper, such as the subtitles - "mainstream style - chops, but no
> >soul" or "HIP is anti-classical". But his book does that what
>deconstruction
> >also aims to do "A strategy of critical analysis of language and texts
>which
> >emphasizes features exposing unquestioned assumptions and
inconsistencies"
> >(The new Shorter Oxford English Dictionary).
> >
> >At the start of the 21st century, I find words such as "modern" or "old
> >fashioned" almost meaningless. Often what is termed modern is just what a
> >small number of people would like to be seen as important in the world
they
> >live in. A small percentage of the world is interested in "high culture"
>and
> >it often sounds so funny to hear music that was written 50 years ago and
>has
> >a very small audience be described as "Modern" or "Neue Musik". Also I am
> >sure that a large percentage of the classical audience see what they
>support
> >in "mainstream classical music" as part of a tradition that goes back
> >through time, but we know that only 100 years ago, music making in
> >orchestras was very different.
> >
> >Modern or old fashioned are often used as quality standards or moral
> >positions, something that is one of the main criticisms of HIP.
> >But HIP is just as Haynes says is a "statement of intent" and not a claim
>to
> >be modern or upholding the thousand year tradition of the prophets.
> >
> >All the best
> >Mark
> >
> >-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >Von: David Tayler [mailto:[email protected]]
> >Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Februar 2009 07:20
> >An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
> >Betreff: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
> >
> >I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better.
> >I've no objection to musical freedom, I just advocate "try then decide".
> >I also think one learns more form one note of a great player than a
> >whole book of deconstructionist.
> >dt
> >
> >At 04:40 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
> > >As you might expect - I advocate the same thing as Haynes, sans
> > >balking. I'd rather deal with the last Tuesday's trills, than
> > >anything by, say, Matteis.
> > >RT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >From: "David Rastall" <[email protected]>
> > >>On Feb 1, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Mark Wheeler wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>You should check out Bruce Haynes book "The end of early music"
> > >>
> > >>I couldn't agree more. It's a very good read. Although Haynes is a
> > >>strong advocate for the writing of "new" music in the Baroque style,
> > >>which makes me balk a little bit. I'd rather go to original 17th- or
> > >>18th-Century sources than try to deal with French trills in something
> > >>written last Tuesday.
> > >>
> > >>DR
> > >>[email protected]
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>
> > >>To get on or off this list see list information at
> > >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> > >
