Mathias
Le 7 févr. 09 à 20:40, Mathias Rösel a écrit :
> "Anthony Hind" <[email protected]> schrieb:
>> Yes, his lute is a rider lute, and I am glad to see that you no
>> longer seem to think that the one automatically entails the other.
>
> As an amateur, I do think that
I am an amteur too, in both senses of the word, as you are perhaps?,
and this is one question I have frequently raised with lutemakers.
> J-barring preceded fan barring
> and that
> bass rider lutes preceded swan-necked lutes.
Well we are in absolute agreement about that. Although, I would doubt
the cut-off points for each would be identical.
Thus J-barring=bass rider, and fan-barring=swan-necked lutes would be
a tendency, but the two sets may not be identical.
e.g. Wolfgang Emmerich who has made research on Railich, tells me
that Railich's later productions did have fan-barring. Yet these are
still rather early compared to Swannecked German lutes.
As a lute "amator" that would be one area that interests me, the
tonal colours that result from barring, wood choices, and lute shapes.
I have communciated with a number of lute makers on that topic, who
generally feel that it is difficult to make any exact predictions
about whether a particular feature results in a specific sound trait.
I regret that there is not more lute tastings, available, however,
Personally, I am a dilettante in my playing, as although I have only
two lutes, one is Renaissance and the other Baroque.
However, this has allowed me to specialize in one area, and that is
in attempting to understand aspects of gut stringing, both historic
and modern.
I have come to adopt the equal tension, loaded string hypothesis, and
stringing two very different lutes has allowed me to carry out
successful experiments that I have tried to report to the list.
I do not reject other approaches to gut stringing such as Satoh's low
tension, RH at bridge, or Ed Martin's Gimped string research which
resulted in his recent excellent record. I find all such experiments
of interest resulting in a variety tonal colours, which again pleases
me.
Fortunately, I do not insist on only listening to recordings made
with Mimmo's most recent loaded strings, or I would not have much to
which to listen, however, I do hope that Jakob Lindberg, Anthony
Bailes or perhaps Paul Beier may make a recording with them in the
near future. (I am hoping!)
Nevertheless, if I report my experiments, it is to encourage others
to do similar, but not necessarilly exactly the same.
I am interested in what you say about the tonal colour of Miguel's
lute playing. Again that is an area that does interest me.
However, I am more interested in discussing the variety of tonal
shades that can be associated with strings, position, etc, in
relation to evidence of the possible tonal properties of historic
performance (iconography, and ancient remarks about string
technology), rather than wanting to impose a particular historically
correct style on any one lutenist. This, I fear, would tend to result
in a caricature of what we believe is historical.
To tell the truth, I have regretted that POD, in particular,
abandonned gut stringing (and for that matter recording LPs). My
favourite POD recording is an Astrée LP where he contrasts wirewound
basses and pure gut basses. I feel his technique may have improved
(speed etc), but with a loss of warmth and texture.
The problem for Baroque lute and gut stringing is somewhat more
compex, as I suggested recently to Taco, but becoming much more
feasible again, I feel.
>> Also he uses nylgut strings, and does not play very far back from the
>> rose, in a position closer to the Jacques Gautier painting, than the
>> Charles Mouton one.
>
> Which results in a sound cloer to the classical guitar than what a
> gut-strung baroque can be expected to sound IMHO.
I had to look up the meaning of IMHO. I am not really up with
electronic mailese.
It is clear that if we have a scale of sound 1) according to the
position ; near the rose, mid position, near the bridge, 2) the hand
shape, ETO like the Charles Mouton protrait or TO like Jacques
Gautier one, 3) the string type : nylgut/carbon : low tension gut/
high tension gut, 4) the lute type: J-barred/fan-barred (etc).
Mouton : http://clanfaw.free.fr/mouton.jpg
Gautier : http://tinyurl.com/24rds
similar to http://tinyurl.com/22bffx
Miguel plays nearer to the rose but with Gautier TO shape, nylgut
( high tension, I think) strings, with J-barred rider lute. All that
will very probably give a more romantic, softer tone with a bluer
colour to it. I would agree to that. and consider it is quite
Hoppylike. We are no doubt always strongly influenced by our teachers.
See Hoppy's Bach which is even further forward on the rose than Miguel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1vxZgM08zo
I have always enjoyed Hoppy's performances, and most of his records,
although for some recordings, I do find that his wirewound basses
have tended to drown the other voices. (but I admit that I am more
willing to air "retiscences" about established performers, than one
who has just made his first recording),
Compare Hoppy's position this photo by Manuel Minguillon
http://www.miguelserdoura.com/images/Miguel-Serdoura-Rochester-2.jpg
This certainly contrasts with Barto's present position, which seems
to have developed into ETO (more Mouton like), as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIANAfU2cS4
This is actually fairly recent position, according to his Ed Durbrow
interview.
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
"I had an immediate affinity for thumb under. As a matter of fact
it's taken me years to get my thumb out more. I'm just getting to the
point now where I really play baroque lute thumb out. I think playing
thumb out is important for having a concept how they really might
have played from the 17th century on." Barto
"Again, questions of fingering are coupled those with hand position
and stringing in arriving at a concept of how to play this
instrument. I don't think anyone has all the answers. All instruction
from the period tell us and the pictures show us that the right hand
was at the bridge. How seriously should we take this?" Barto
I note that Satoh, is perhaps even further back (low tension), but
with with Gautier TO shape, see here, and also listen to the effect:
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TastingBaroque.html
http://tinyurl.com/2vxntm
Listen
http://tinyurl.com/2rsk5p
I have not heard discussion of this hand-shape question, only the
hand position.
I will attempt to raise more questions about all this at a later date.
I am interested in acquiring a deeper undesrtanding of these issues,
not necessarily looking for a catechism.
There may have been a number of different historic approaches to lute
sound production.
Indeed, the icongraphy, and marks on lutes, do show some variation.
No doubt that hand further back is more prevalent in iconography,
probably leading to a more percussive sound, than that of Hoppy or
Miguel,
Unless that is the string tension were very low, or exceptionally
flexible (loaded?), and the lute sound boards may well, also have
been loaded,
leading to a very different sound, more like the Rauwolf. According
to Bailes, recent article in the lute news, such ancient lutes do
call for a further back position, but as Barto says "I don't think
anyone has all the answers".
About Miguel, I should add, that he has decided to specialize, he now
only plays Baroque lute, but has not always done so.
He tells me the sound he is after is a clear and round sound, perhaps
more influenced by the piano than the guitar, as there is a strong
family history of piano playing.
Anthony
> I've listened to his
> CD several times by now, and I must say, his performance certainly is
> impeccable, but I do not particularly like the sound. Matter of taste,
> probably.
> --
> Mathias
>
>
>
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