But who invented the "re-entrant"?
J
________
On 2009-07-10, at 18:26, Mathias Rösel wrote:
Okay, found it out. The term was invented in the 20th century. No
Erzlaute in Grimm's dictionary. The term may sound ancient in German,
but in fact it is an artificial term, created in order to categorize
types of lutes. I'd say, forget Erzlaute.
Mat
Perhaps, it's a matter of dictionaries, indeed. Not sure for English
archlute, but Erzlaute was defined to mean what we'd today call
theorboed lutes by Sachs. Seem to remember he even invented the name.
Will look it up when I'm back home tonight.
As for booklets, Erzlaute isn't very frequen= tly mentioned at all
because there aren't many recordings with arciliuto, liuto
attiorbato,
archlute available over here. All theorbo players I know will call
their
instrument Theorbe or Chitarrone, certainly not Erzlaute.
Respectfully, too,
Mathias
-----Original-Nac= hricht-----
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Datum: Fri, 10= Jul 2009 10:48:38 +0200
Von: David Tayler <vidan...@sbcglobal= .net>
An: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" <[email protected]>= ;
Although I will of course defer to my German
co= lleagues in matters of native language,
I have used the term for = 35 years in Germany with no problems.
If you take a few hundred C= Ds from the last
thirty years you will find that the term is
usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently.
= You will also find from the same period that a
proportion of the= se CDs also conflates the terms
theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute= , so there can't
be a definite meaning for the terms.
H= istorically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an
a= rchlute.
Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often
&= gt; are in the disposition of the instruments.
This is understand= able, however, since many
unabridged German dictionaries give Erz= laute as a
synonym for Bogenlaute (which is rarely used) and
translate it as archlute, not theorbo.
For CDs that are ori= ginally in English or French
those who rely on these dictionaries= for CD notes
and translations thus keep the term current.
&= gt; In addition, musicological papers as well as
Festival booklet= s from major festivals use not
only these dictionaries but also t= he Grove
Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines,
rig= htly of wrongly, erzlaute as archlute.
So it could be = that there is a difference between
the written use of the word an= d the spoken use of
the word, but of course the word mainly appea= rs in printed
material.
Respectfully,
dt
At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote:
"Jerzy Zak" <[email protected]> schrieb:
= ; > That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays:
"teorbierte
laute" (or close to that spelling),
<= br />> >
It's become part of the history of research.= With Pohlmann (ch.
7),
Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theo= rbierte Laute. According to
his
definition, Theorbenlauten w= ere lutes with first pegboxes bent
back
and second pegboxes = attached in the direction of the neck.
If I'= m not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed
l= utes today.
To complete confusion, he added:= "Theorbierte Lauten werden auch
Knickhalslauten genannt, di= e auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder
rechts Aufsaetze fuer = die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben."
Theorbierte Lauten= are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with
bent-back necks= ), which have riders on their pegboxes on the
left
and(or on= the right for the highest or lowest strings.
= ; Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this
sophisticated
= > > "definition". My, o my.
= > > the untranslatable to Polish "re-entrant".
= > > It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either.
Some
ha= ve
tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurre= nt,
retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions o= f
someone
running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tun= ing_ is sort
of
"coming back".
= ; Mathias
On 2009-07-09= , at 22:14, Mathias Roesel wrote:
&= gt; > And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as
= ; > > > sweeping IMHO,
neglecting differe= nces between the liuto attiorbato, the
arciliuto a= nd the archlute.
Someone= put a language link to it into
http://de.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is
misleading.
The G= erman term Erzlaute was meant to be generic.
Mathias
= > "Jerzy Zak" <[email protected]> schrieb:
&g= t;
David,
Than= ks for that.
B= esides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the
= > > "latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites
". I'm absolutely
= > > > > > not qualified to comment on that, but would love t=
o read
other's -- just to remind it's still "= untouched" by other
pluckers. Perhaps some lu= te exemple
??
= > > > > >
J
&g= t; > > _____
= >
On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler w= rote:
Arc= hlute
dt
&= gt;
At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote:
What is an "Erzlaute"?
= > > > > > The other instruments pecified on the page are "o=
rgan,
harpsichord, violins, cello, = guitar, theorbE".
&= gt; > > > > jz
&g= t; >
To get on or off th= is list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/= ~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
Viele Grüße
Mathias Rösel
http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com
http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel
http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
--
Viele Grüße
Mathias Rösel
http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com
http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel
http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
