Dear Anthony, Yes indeed, still much to learn (and unlearn) about historic practices but, as you say, it's surely right to try and grope towards the light.
Regarding a stand oil finish I was referring to the finish on the belly only. But on some hard resinous woods, such as rosewood, an oiled finish is also suitable for backs. Indeed varnishes exhibit poorer adhesion to this sort of wood than to less resinous/oily common woods such as maple (some 19th century rosewood furniture exhibits surface finish peeling). In passing, Alistair Lawrence the early keyboard restorer, tells me an oiled finish was common on keyboard cases up to the 19th century when 'french' (why French - was it a French invention) polishing came common - he thinks earlier keyboard instruments with a varnished or French polish finish have been refinished in the 19thC. I didn't really make it clear, but with oxidised stand oil the finish is more satin than dead matt and once hardened this can be buffed up to a shinier finish if wished (on a rosewood back for example). Yes, I also wondered about the fragments of wood from Linberg's (and other lutes) which have been 'restored'; like you I'd hope they were conserved but............. Martyn --- On Mon, 21/9/09, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote: > From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Further on finishes (lute tops) > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "Lute builder Dmth" > <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Date: Monday, 21 September, 2009, 10:07 AM > > Dear Martyn > Le 20 sept. 09 à 10:39, Martyn Hodgson a écrit > : > > I'm > not at all sure of what lessons we can learn for lute > bellies from Micheman's experiments with violins; I just > thought that this was a slightly different perspective on > the question of soundboard treatment which might be of > interest. > Well actually, I quite agree, I think it would be > entirely appropriate to investigate alternative hypotheses, > and if there were competing experimentation it would show a > lively dynamic in modern lute making. However, I suspect > that the context is too financially tough to allow > lutemakers enough free time for experiments that might lead > to wasted instruments, or damaged wood. > It is difficult, anyway, to carry out meaningful > experiments, as it is almost impossible to test a single > ingredient, while keeping the other factors neutral : every > piece of wood is potentially different. This, preumably > means that results have to be outstanding (beyond that which > any other possible variant could have introduced) to prove > without doubt the acoustic benefit of whatever is being > tested. > At the same time, there is the "strong > historicity constrait" that not only should it be > proved there is an acoustic benefit from an ingredient, but > also that such an ingredient was actually used historically, > and not just potentially available. > However, I wonder whether this constraint should > not be relaxed somewhat, if a particular ingredient is > resulting in physical qualities in the wood, which we can > prove did exist historically (giving thinner harder tops, > for example), but which (for some reason) we can no longer > reproduce naturally (ie this was the type of wood quality > that players of the time had on their lutes, even if > it might not have been brought about by this particular > method). Might it not be acceptable to use recipes that > were definitely historically available at the time to > acquire a wood quality that definitely was available at the > time.(If, for example, we can prove that thinner > tables were actually due to the existence of much harder > natural woods (possibly due to more regular climatic events > than are now present), would it not be acceptable to look > for another way of achieving this, compatible with the > knowledge at the time.In the same way, might it > be acceptable to use dense tight grained woods that were not > available to lute makers at the time, if we can show that > the wood in question actually has a similar density to the > old woods which are now no longer available with the same > quality?) > If it is true that historic tables were both > harder and thinner than they are now, then players of the > time did have the acoustic benefits of this when composing. > It would not be like resorting to a liuto forte to make up > for the poor acoustics of a venue. > I know this is a dangerous (possibly slippery) > path, and the ideal would be to rediscover the actual > historical recipe that had been used; and I agree, that more > analyses of old instruments is needed. I wonder, for > example, whether pieces of Jakob Lindberg's lute were > analysed while it was being reconstructed. If not, that > would surely have been a lost chance. > I wonder what the role of > the old lute guilds would have been in relation to > experimentation at the time. Were they a very conservative > agent, making sure little change in methods took place, or > were they a sort of superstructure within which space lute > makers discussed and shared their experiments and knowledge; > or was it the individual lute maker's shop that made a > discovery, and tried to keep this a secret, while the others > competed to try and discover just what this > was?Does the modern lute making context allow for > sufficient experimentation and discussion between lute > makers, while still protecting secrets and allowing healthy > competition? Is the context more individualistic, > or less individualistic, than at the time?It does > seem to me that piercing the secrets of the past, would > probably take a team effort. > > Michelman > is very persuaded by his own work and especially by the > linseed oil treatment (he calls it 'preliminary > treatment') and came to firmly believe that this was > largely the 'secret' of the Old Ones' (esp > Strad's)varnish. > One > problem, as I see it, is that which you touch on by asking > at what stage the treatment was undertaken; it's clear > that he flooded his test violins (all made by the same > American maker) with linseed oil - so much so that the oil > penetrated throughout the wood. He did not report any glue > failures (eg on front or back joints or bass bar) but it > would certainly loom large in my mind when considering > flooding a lute belly and the possibility for increased glue > failure of the bars. In short, I > dunno. > Perhaps, the stronger structure of a violin can > support a tougher treatment. I am sorely tempted to pour a > bottle of linseed into my Baroque lute in the name of > science. > In > practice I use stand oil (ie partly oxidised linseed oil) > which is very viscous and does not penetrate much below the > surface of the wood, as a sort of sealer - it certainly > brings the grain to perfection and provides a matt and hard > (once oxidised) dirt resitant surface. In lieu of any firm > evidence on what the early lute makers used (if anything at > all) I think this is a real possibilty. > > Are you speaking here of the whole lute, or just > the table? There seem to be a variety of ways of treating > tables, but many modern lutes (including mine do seem to > have shiny polished backs). > Although, I agree Matt surfaces can be very > beautiful. showing the grain more. Is there any acoustic > advantage here for a light instrument like a lute, which > perhaps should not be treated in the same way as say a > modern violin? > I would have thought that it would be easy to > see this by just touching and looking at old lutes, which > was the more historic method. Although, I suppose it is > almost impossible to know whether a particular surface is > historic, or been "added" or altered at a much > later date. > > The > other historical alternative I've seen suggested is > using tempera - basically an egg/linseed oil emulsion as > painters use(d) - seem to run into problems of > discolouration over time where the hand comes into contact > with the belly (esp the little finger). > Finally, > I think we perhaps need more evidence from the chemical > analysis of historical instruments before assuming salting > is the alluring 'secret' for stringed instrument > soundboards but, of course, this runs into problems of > non-destructive testing and how to get such samples > (tho' I suspect very small fragments from > 'restored' instruments would be helpful - if they > are ever retained......). > I believe there have been > quite a few tests. Yet of course one can't be sure that > the chemicals were deliberately introduced. It could be that > the treatment for woodworm and fungus contained metal salts, > or that the wood was stored in slightly salty areas. > Nevertheless, if lutemakers preferred wood that by chance > was treated in this way, there would probably be no argument > against artificially introducing such chemicals to achieve > the same effect. > RegardsAnthony > > > Martyn > --- > On Fri, 18/9/09, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > wrote: > From: > Anthony Hind <[email protected]>Subject: > [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruceTo: > "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>Cc: > [email protected]: > Friday, 18 September, 2009, 4:37 PMDear > Martyn > This seems to be thelink > to Michelman's book on violin varnishes:http://tinyurl.com/l2p2ja > I > suppose discussion on this question within the pages > ,here, > would actually > be among those addressed to and by lute makers,rather > than here > at Baroque Lute, but I will give a sweep through > allthe > old pages. > After > many years I looked again at my copy of > Michelman > yesterday > and > see that my memory missed the main reason he > thought > the tone > improved > by linseed oil - not just, or mainly, the > loss > in weight > but > more the amalgamation of the wood (again tho' I > think > rather > like > the salt 'hardening' of the wood). Linseed oil > dries > of course > into > a hard film not at all like machinery grease > etc. > > I should of course > readMichelman's > book before asking this question, > and perhaps, I would find the answer, however,here > goes: > I > suppose the linseed oil treatment is made after the > tableis installed > on the instrument, and not before (or there mightbe problems > having the hide-glue adhere to it)? If mysupposition > is correct, > would the instrument maker be able to cut the woodthinner just > by taking account of the future effect of the > linseed,once applied, > or wouldn't it just be used to improve the > soundby hardening > the wood whatever the chosen thickness? > I > think this could be significant, because Mimmo tells > methat > a number > of old instruments he has measured, havesurprisingly > hard, but > also thin, soundboards.If > the thinness were the aim of the luthier, it could > implya > "pre" rather > than a "post" treatment, (although, as Dana > Emerypointed > out, this > could conceivably be the result of accidental, > ratherthan deliberate > treatment), but this might point to salts (orchemicals) rather > than linseed. > Mimmo > mentions a Stradivari cello soundboard that was > only3.0 > mm thick. > He tells me the soundboard was "quite flat" (I > thinkhe > means undistorted), > and he finds it difficult to think this couldbe untreated > Spruce. Personally, I am no specialist, soI > don't know whether > 3mm for a cello is unusually thin. > He > also mentions Antonio de Torres > guitar-soundboards that > he was able > to open and hold, saying they were always so thin > and,at > the same > time hard to bend. Although the fan bracing is thesame > as used today. > He also said the Spruce is both hard and brown incolour. These > two qualities, he can reproduce, by applying oldchemical recipes > to the the Spruce. He sees this same brown colourin > many paintings > of earlier instruments. > I > am wondering whether browness is typical of > Linseedtreatment (Mimmo > says there is no die present), and whether such atreatment (once > the board is mounted) could account for the > thinnessof soundboards > simply by some chemical bonding effect? > > Apparently, Navygary's chemical analysisdoes > show that the spruce soundboard's > of Guarneri's instruments were deeplyimpregnated > with alum, > silicate, copper etc. although these substances > arenot > present in > the natural growing wood. > Mimmo > has, in fact, found two 18th century recipes (oneearly, > one mid) > explaining how to make wood "as hard as stone" > byapplying chemicals, > and a luthier friend of his tried them outmaking > two guitars; > the results, he says, were amazing, the soundsuperb. > He > himself, was able to improve the sound speed of > Sprucefrom > 5,400 mt/sec > to 6,350 mt/ sec (almost the same as that of > carbonfibre). > In the > cross grain the speed reached 2900 mt/sec, > froman > initial value of > 2300 mt/sec. > > I suppose chemical treatment does notpreclude > the use of Linseed, except > that the salts do already replace the natural sapresidues > (as Michelman > says Linseed can do). On the other hand, thelinseed > could form > an excellent protection against the acid traces > leftby > fingers.In > any case, the use of chemicals by some makers would > notpreclude the > use of Linseed by others. > > However, I do recall contradictorypoints > of view, relating to varnishes > on lute tables. Some saying that the lesstreatment > the better.Indeed, > my Renaissance lute has just a slight > "varnish"that > seems quite > soft, and indeed remained sticky for a few months,and > gives practically > no protection from skin acids, while my Baroquelute > has a > hard to the touch "varnish", which gives great > protection(linseed?).Apparently > my Renaissance lute maker is in favour of the"less > is best" > school, but perhaps my Baroque lute maker did useLinseed > oil.Both > lutes do have good, if different, sound qualities. > Thanks > for pointing out the Google book, I will > definitelyread > this.RegardsAnthony > > Le > 17 sept. 09 à 10:12, Martyn Hodgson a écrit : > > Dear > Anthony, > After > many years I looked again at my copy of > Michelman > yesterday > and > see that my memory missed the main reason he > thought > the tone > improved > by linseed oil - not just, or mainly, the > loss > in weight > but > more the amalgamation of the wood (again tho' I > think > rather > like > the salt 'hardening' of the wood). Linseed oil > dries > of course > into > a hard film not at all like machinery grease etc. > Indeed > Stand > Oil > (ie partly oxidised Linseed oil) will dry to a > hard > film which > can > be buffed in a matter of days: it's been suggested > that > this > was > used on the bellies of lutes and would also act as > a > sealer and > I > recall this was discussed some time ago and > presumably > can be > found > in the archives. > Martyn > > PS > I've just googled the book and amazingly see that > the > work has > been > scanned by Google books so you can read it > online...... > > --- > On Wed, 16/9/09, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > wrote: > > From: > Anthony Hind <[email protected]>Subject: > Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruceTo: > "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, > baroque- > [email protected]: > Wednesday, 16 September, 2009, 8:54 AMDear > MartynLe > 15 sept. 09 à 16:51, Martyn Hodgson a écrit > : > > Dear > Anthony, > I > don't know if you are aware of the > pioneering > work on > treatment of violin wood which Joseph Michelman > undertook > in > the US during the 1940s: his work was published > (VIOLIN > VARNISH) > in 1946. > No, > I heard of the more recent work relating to > salt > loading > of Strads by the Hungarian, > Nagyvaryhttp://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686http://tinyurl.com/62juy9Presumably, > he was basing his research on the > ideas > of Michelman. > Mimmo > also carried out similar research, noting > that > metallic > salts replace the sap compounds in the > wood > and make > it as hard as stone.The > earliest reference, I believe to treating > instruments > with > salts, is in a work by Bernard Palissy. > Thank > you for telling me about this work by > Michelman, > I would > indeed be interested in reading it.I > seem to remember when I was a child that cricket > bats > were > soaked in linseed oil, and that if this was > not > done they > would crack almost immediately. I just > assumed > that the > oils somehow made the wood more supple (less > brittle), > but > I didn't think harder,but > presumably, if the process is similar to that > discussed > by > Michelman, it should result both in a more > flexibilty > and a > harder wood. > Could > this process be attempted on a completed > lute > (similarly > to the cricket bat)? I am not > suggesting > one should > try, just wondering. > In > the case of the salts, I think the wood becomes > more > dense, > and so this allows it to be cut thinner, > while > it sounds > as though linseedmight > simply make the wood lighter (whatever itsthickness), > but perhaps I have not completely > grasped > the concept. > I > will certainly have to read Michelman before > liberally > applying > the linseed!Anthony > > > > > > I > believe Michelman was a chemist and > certainly > his book > demonstrates a rigourous appoach to violin > varnish > and belly > treatments than many earlier works. What may > be > on interest > in the context of salt loading of > sounboards > is > that he reported on what he believed the > early > makers > used to permanently reduce the unecessary > weight > of the > sounboard and improve stifness. In his case he > conducted > trials > and concluded that linseed oil was > used > which replaced > the heavier water content much, perhaps, > in > the same > way as salt loading may do. Michelman also > described > work > with 'metal soaps' which are produced when > water > soluble > salts react with fatty acids in the wood - > I > presume this > is also linked to salt loading outcomes. In > short, well worth a read if you're > interested > in the > subject > Martyn > > --- > On Tue, 15/9/09, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > wrote: > > From: > Anthony Hind <[email protected]>Subject: > [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack > spruce > To: > [email protected]: > Tuesday, 15 September, 2009, 10:45 > AM > Dear > Ed > I > had > a look at what guitar > sites > said about Adirondack, and it seems > "that > the > chief benefit > of using Adirondak Spruce as a top > is > its stiffness > to > weight ratio."http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ > > t-51636.html > Presumably > this makes it possible to cut > the > table thinner, > and > so its reactions should become faster > (similar > to > what happens > with carbon).This > is also what Mimmo tells me about > spruce > treated > with salts. > The wood becomes much harder, and > can > be cut > thinner. > That > is also why, Martin Haycock told me > he > liked to > use Bird's > eye maple for backs; because it is > relatively > hard, he > can cut it thinner than Sycamore. > Incidentally, > on the guitar page, there is > a > tendancy > to associate > Bearclaw Sitka, with > Adirondak, > for > the same reason. > "the > qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it > to > be worked > to achieve > better tone. Due to it's superior > stiffness > the top can > be dimensioned a little thinner > (perhaps > this isn't > done by > the "factory" guitar makers?). This > should > translate > into a > faster attack transient (an essential > characteristic > for clean, > fast flat picking). If that is what > you > are looking > for, > then that would be better." > (However, > I was also told, "The rather > unusual > 'bear > claw' figure > seems to be an irregularity ofthe > annual rings themselves, and as you > have > seen for > yourself, > can be veryvariable. > Wood showing this figure seems > generally > to > be stiff > andacoustically > good, although I do not > think > especially > better > than normalwood, > and I would rather use it for its > decorative > qualities, > and not assumeit > wil be superior acoustically." > Now, > presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear > claw > Sika) were > used as > though it were regular European Spruce, > it > would > need far longer > running-in.It > would presumably show higher resistance > to > vibration. > > On > the other hand, I read somewhere on a > violin > page > that you > do need to accept a fairly long > playing-in > time; > that it is > quite easy to make a top that can be > run-in > quickly, > by making > it too thin, but then it tends to > die > early too. > > > However I am sure > Daniel > will > make you a superb > Adirondak top, although I rather > agree > with David, > that > this does not mean that many > lutemakers > will swap > over to > it. I don't think that the very > successful > experiments > with > salts loaded spruce tops has lead > many > lutemakers > to try > it. > The > main thing is that you will soon be > back > playing > 11c music, > and perhaps we will have another > excellent > recording > like > your recent Conradi - Kelner record. > Best > wishesAnthony > > Le > 15 sept. 09 à 05:45, Edward Martin a > écrit > : > Thanks, > David. > I > fully understand that a new lute > (i.e. > top, in > my case) > will not sound > as seasoned as an older one, but > in > this case, > I had > no option, due > to the damage. > I > have heard that "right out of the > box" > that Adirondack > sounds superb. > Are > there any on this net who know of > an > Adirondack > spruce > top on a lute? > ed > At > 05:49 PM 9/14/2009, David Rastall > wrote: > Hi > Ed, > Sorry > to hear about your lute. > Ouch!! > > From > what I've heard, Adirondack > is > a good choice > for > a lute. Apparently > it compares favorably > with > European > spruce > at its best. Most > of the Adirondack spruce was > used > up during > WW > 2 in the making of > airplanes. But today, the > trees > that > were too > young to be used back > then are big enough now to be > cut > down > for commercial > use. > My > only reservation is that it > might > take longer > to > break in than the other > spruces. That's what > I've > heard > from various > guitar mavens. Apparently, > the pre-war guitars > made > with Adirondack > are just now becoming > fully broken in. > Because > of its quality, > availability > and price, > Adirondack > is considered > the Holy Grail of > guitar > tops. > I think > it would work well on > any lute that put it under > enough > tension. > It might not work so well > on a 6 or 8-course ren. > lute. > It > would probably > work well as a top > for a theorbo. > I > think you will most likely be > the > only lutenist > ever > to play on an Adirondack > top! > Best, > DavidR > > On > Sep 14, 2009, at 1:54 PM, > Edward > Martin wrote: > > Dear > ones, > I > had an accident with my > 11-course > lute > 2 months > ago; the top was shattered. > My instrument > is > one made > by Daniel > Larson, and it is 67 cm, > the Frei C34 design. > The > lute > was firstly > made in 1995 as a 7-course > Frei, and it was in > 1997 > converted > into > an 11-course Frei. > This lute had a > most > beautiful > sound, > and I am very fortunate to > have recorded my CD > "Allemande" > on it, > as a testament > to its gorgeous > sound, so I can have > this > sound > to make > reference. > The > instrument is not a total > loss, > and > it is the > soundboard where the > damage occurred. As > it > was not > repairable, > Dan has constructed a new > top for it. The > original > top was > made > of Italian spruce, but for the > replacement, it is made > of > Adirondack > spruce. > It is very near completion, > and the finish > merely > needs > to be polished > (French polish). > Sitka, > Engelmann, and European > spruce > varieties > are the most commonly used > for today's instruments, > but > I have > never heard > of Adirondack spruce > used for lute tops. > Wikipedia > makes this > description > of Adirondack > spruce: > > "Adirondack > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruce>Spruce > aka RedSpruce > (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens>Picea > rubens). > This > legendary wood that > Martin > used for > its tops > throughout its golden > years came from the > East > Coast, from > the > Southern Mountains into > New England and upper New > York > State. > Called > both Appalachian and > Adirondack spruce, it has > a > creamy white > color. > Similar to Sitka, Adirondack > responds well to > either > a light > or firm > touch. It has more overall > resonance than Sitka. > Interesting > grain > color variations make this > another visually > desirable > top. Adirondack > has been unavailable since > the mid-1940s. Virgin > growth > has been > (fortunately) > preserved in > national parks; the rest is > all > second > growth, > plentiful but too small > to be usable for guitar > tops > until > recently. > Guitar makers have started > finding second growth > of > at least > 100 years > old that is big enough > to be used for tops > again. > Adirondack > is, > like Alpine spruce, very > expensive and mainly used > for > top of > the range > acoustic guitars." > I > looked at the Martin guitar > page, > where > they state > that Adirondack spruce > is used on their > extreme > top-end > models. > Dan tells me that this > wood is very difficult to > obtain, > but > he obviously > does have some > of it. In talking > with > some guitar > friends, > they state it is wide > grained, not straight > grained; > they also > tell me it is the absolutely > best top wood for > guitars, > but > it is > rare, as availability makes > it so scarce. > Mine > is very tight and > straight-grained. > If > one were to compare its appearance, > it mostly > resembles > German spruce, > in > my estimation. > Dan > has made 2 batches > of > 4 modern > guitars; > in each batch, he used Italian > spruce on 3, and > Adirondack > in > 1. > He rates the best results were > startling; in both > batches, > the > Adirondack > top yielded the best result > in all areas - volume, > complexity > of sound, > clearness, singing trebles, > and depth. > Obviously, > I am very excited > to > hear what > the final > result is on my old > lute. > My > question is: has > anyone > on the > list constructed, > owned, or played a > lute with an Adirondack > top? > This > very well > may be the first lute with > this top, as I have never > heard > of > it prior > to this project. > Thanks! > ed > > > > > Edward > Martin2817 > East 2nd StreetDuluth, > Minnesota 55812e-mail: > [email protected]: > (218) > 728-1202http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=namehttp://www.myspace.com/edslute > > > > To > get on or off this list see > list > information > at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > No > virus found in this incoming > message. > Checked > by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: > 8.5.409 / Virus > Database: > 270.13.98/2371 > - > Release Date: 09/14/09 > 17:52:00 > > > Edward > Martin2817 > East 2nd StreetDuluth, > Minnesota 55812e-mail: > [email protected]: > (218) > 728-1202http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=namehttp://www.myspace.com/edslute > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To > get on or off this list see list information > athttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
