I would like to second that! The Campion recording is superb! Mark
-----Original Message----- From: Eugene C. Braig IV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:46 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte An intriguing point regarding angelique tuning. However, arguing there must be six J.S. Bach suites specifically for some incarnation of lute because there is that number known for cello still seems silly. I didn't realize Bach was writing to fill quotas for solo suites. In spite, I actually am quite fond of Bellocq's recordings on 5-course guitar. In particular, note his recording of Francois Campion's music. Eugene > -----Original Message----- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:29 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" tunins is not hypothetical, but is > rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that does in fact > remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works. > I personally find it plausible. > RT > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all > specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works > being > intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still, > tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented > lute > type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to > lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time. > > What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote > several > works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must > have > composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We > have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of > suites > for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, > etc.). > It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are > uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. > > Eugene > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On > > Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM > > To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; [email protected] > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a > lute" > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. > > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed > > six > > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge > and > > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a 'luito > > forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > > playable!" > > > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the > evidence? > > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been > recorded > > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > > > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing > > that > > some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering > that > > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the > > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the > > early > > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. > > > > Mark > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Im > > Auftrag > > von Sauvage Valéry > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > > An: [email protected] > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on > > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form > of > > a > > > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in > > itself, > > > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... > > V. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > > > lutenists: > > > > > > > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here > have > > > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars > and > > > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing > > some > > > > > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > > > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain > > touch...there > > > > > are players that can do it. > > > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g > > Boulez: > > > > > Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > > > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > > > Best, > > > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected]; Sauvage Valéry <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > Valery, > > > > > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> Ok forte, > > >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for > > >> the one he used). > > >> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you > > >> can play with nails... > > > > > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really > > > awful > > > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other > > > classical > > > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from > it > > > may be > > > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to > emphasize > > > the > > > lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other > > modern > > > instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a > > certain > > > portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its > > > charm in > > > other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even > > > then it > > > doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument > > > amplified > > > in even small ensembles. > > > > > > If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of > > > guitar > > > (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and > timbre > > > itself, > > > a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a classical guitar in > > any > > > of my > > > ensemble music for years. A steel-string guitar works very well > > > unamplified in > > > a small ensemble and the electric guitar has no volume limitations at > > all. > > > Contemporary composers would find much of interest in these > instruments > > > and > > > modern classical guitarists would be well advised to think of them as > > > alternate > > > versions of their instrument. Unfortunately, classical players often > > > perceive > > > them as some kind of threat from outside the "official" guitar world. > > > > > > I haven't found this same problem with lutes or theorbos. The > emphasis > > of > > > higher partials means that the sound on both can cut through quite > well. > > > Play > > > close to the bridge and you can be heard most of the time. I've been > > > thinking > > > of writing a duo for lute and modern guitar. Maybe now's the time to > > > investigate the project. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "wolfgang wiehe" <[email protected]> > > >> To: <[email protected]>; > > >> <[email protected]>; > > >> <[email protected]> > > >> Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM > > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on > > >> "Burg > > >> Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) > > >> Greetings > > >> W. > > >> > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > >> Von: [email protected] > > >> [mailto:[email protected]] > > >> Im > > >> Auftrag von [email protected] > > >> Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 > > >> An: [email protected]; > > >> [email protected] > > >> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > >> > > >> > > >> OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar > > >> repertoire! > > >> . and is happy with finger nails. > > >> > > >> > > >> Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto > > >> forte hat > > >> occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? > > >> > > >> > > >> I missed it. > > >> > > >> > > >> Mark Delpriora > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Roman Turovsky <[email protected]> > > >> To: Lutelist <[email protected]> > > >> Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am > > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > >> > > >> > > >> It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by > > >> Andre Burguete, > > >> that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the > > >> volume of the > > >> guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and > > >> has some > > >> interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and > > >> soundboard > > >> construction. > > >> Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the > > >> sound > > >> (negligibly). > > >> This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. > > >> But one really misses the overtone palette of double > > >> strings. > > >> It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is > > >> sick of the > > >> guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his > > >> nails. > > >> > > >> http://www.liuto-forte.com/ > > >> There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver > > >> Holzenburg, Luciano > > >> Contini et al. > > >> RT > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Winheld" > > >> <[email protected]> > > >> To: <[email protected]> > > >> Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM > > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > >> > > >> > Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto > > >> Forte? (I must have > > >> > been out of the office for this one) > > >> > thanks, Dan > > >> > -- > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > To get on or off this list see list information at > > >> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > --
