-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Susanne Herre
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM
To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
Thank you Eugene!
Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a
mandolin
player at all?
Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics
because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you
play with your finger...
Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one
course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens
automatically, I made this experience as well.
All the best,
Susanne
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV
To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List
Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin
I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era
iconography
that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung
mandolins. If
it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think
plectrum
use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy
iconography.
I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern
Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano,
so I
am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable
volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using
quill,
I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That
said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o.
Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to
technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on
same)
until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for
Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s.
Best,
Eugene
----- Original Message -----
From: Susanne Herre <mandolinens...@web.de>
Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am
Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin
To: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>, Lute List
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>
> Dear Davide,
>
> Thank you for your comments!
>
> I still think we can not be so sure about certain things
because
> we don't
> have much evidence.
>
> > - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it
> could be played
> > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century.
>
> Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in
operas?
> It is possible to play with a quill...
>
> I know about some paintings which show the finger technique
(all
> in all we
> don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English)
> where there
> seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture
> without any
> year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there is
> a quill and
> I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this
> picture is
> played with it...
>
> I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the
> loudness of
> different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe also
> depends on
> different acoustics (as I would use different bows in different
> concert
> rooms)
> But I think you get a brighter sound with a quill amd then the
> sound will
> maybe go easier to the
> listeners. But it is interesting to read about your experience!
>
> I didn't say that amteurs used finger techniques and who says
> that playing
> with fingers is more complex than playing with a quill?
> If you would like to do it very well it is both not easy...
> I was just considering that there were persons who maybe played
> the mandolin
> but not the lute or the theorbo.
>
> For the use of the quill I say it could be a possibility,
> "maybe". It is
> just a theory as all is what we try to find out.
>
> I think in the 17th and 18th century there was such a diversity
> of things
> and not as much standarts as today that we would be surprised
> what is
> possible if we would have the chance to make a journey to the
> early times
> ; )
>
> fingers: fast scales are more difficult, arpeggios more easy,
> sound is more
> smooth
> quill: arpeggio is more difficult, fast scales mire easy, sound
> is more
> bright
> So we try to use the advantages of the techniques. The more
> possibilities we
> have, the better...
>
> Yes I also think that in general it is easier to play fast
> scales with thumb
> and index. But some things are easier to do with middle
> finger... So I think
> the best is maybe a combination.
>
> If we look at Weiss he didn't use much the alternation of thumb
> and index,
> did he?
> So I don't think the techniques are exactly the same because
the
> mandolinhas other musical tasks and really less strings... ; )
>
> I agree with you about "milanese", "lombardo" etc. but I'm
tired
> of talking
> about that... ; )
>
> But I think the nomenclature of "mandolino" and "mandolin"
> is also not very
> helpful because it is only a question of the language...
> At the moment I prefer "baroque mandolin" and "neapolitan
mandolin".
>
> I really would like to see and hear your playing! Please
tell me
> when you
> will be playing near Cologne or do you have any video etc...?
> And please tell me how your book is developing.
>
> Kind regards and thanks!
>
> Susanne
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>
> To: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de>
> Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy
> 18th century
>
>
> > Dear Susanne,
> >
> > thanks for your email and your suggestions.
> > First of all I would say that while there is evidence that
baroque
> > mandolino was played with finger tips ( music, iconography)
> > - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it
> could be played
> > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century.
> >
> > My experience is just the opposite of what Edward Martin
wrote
> and I
> > wonder if he performed with a baroque orchestra or a modern
> one or if he
> > used modern plectrums.
> > By the way I would suggest everyboby to stop using the term
> mandolino> LOMBARDO or MILANESE which is a modern (XIX th
> century) term referred to
> > the 6 single string mandoline that developed and was
played in
> the XIX
> > century untill the beginning of the XX century ( played
with a
> cherrybark> plectrum).
> > It is a very common mistake also here in Italy ( museums,
exhibition
> > catalogues, mandoline makers ect....) very misleading.
> > When I started playing the baroque mandolino, more than 20
> years ago -
> > having previously played the neapolitan with the plectrum - I
> thought just
> > like you and I tried to play chamber music with a quill
> for some pieces
> > which didin't require fingers for polyphonic passages,
because
> I thought
> > it could be louder, but then I realized it is not.
> > I also tried to play the same piece in a concert or concert-
> lecture using
> > the two different tecniques and every body ( musicians,
> audience,> instrument makers...) noticed that if you play
> with fingers it is much
> > louder and sounds better than with any plectrum plectrum.
> > Apart form the loudness you cannot compare the quality
> of sound you get
> > with finger tips.
> > Unless you have a bad instrument you will agree, if you try.(
> I read you
> > have an Hasenfuss so I suppose it is good and loud enough)
> > The mandolino plucked with finger tips is very loud, louder
> than a
> > neapolitan or genovese mandoline played with historical
quills;
> > I play many different original mandolini made in the XVIII
> century, with a
> > low string tension, from different makers and different
string
> lenght as
> > well as copies and I never had any problems of volume
> performing with
> > baroque orchestra in a theatre.
> > So I really cannot understand whay you say that for cahmber
> music they
> > needed the plectrum, and why XVII and XVIII century amateurs
> should have
> > used a tecnique which was more difficult and that nobody
> used,except,> maybe, folk musicians on other instruments.
> > I'm sure you know (and tried )that fast arpeggios are
> much more difficult
> > with the plectrum than with finger tips.
> > The sound is brighter but not louder with plectrum. It could
> almost be the
> > same if you use a modern thick plectrum ( as unfortunatly
many
> mandolin> players do)
> > but if you try with a quill it is not loud at all.
> >
> > The professional mandolin player did not exist before the
neapolitan
> > mandoline became popular, and there is evedence that many
> theorbists and
> > lute player played the mandolino and composed music for
it. Of
> course they
> > played with the only tecnique they knew.
> > Everything is possible in theory but you do not have any
> evidence to say
> > the contrary, do you?
> >
> > Anyway the main question is that most of the music suvived (
> staff and
> > tablature) requires the use of the fingers (not only the very
> few solo
> > pieces) because is not entirely nonodic and unless you don't
> change the
> > chords positions or arpeggios ( as we have evidence
looking at
the
> > corrections that XVIII century players did in some pieces).
> > Besides I don't think that a lutenist/ thoerbist would'nt
have
> add some
> > harmony playing a piece written in a single monodic line).
> >
> > You are right when you say that "there is no evidence the
playing
> >> technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could also
> have been
> >> middle plus index or a mixture...">
> > Index and medium could be possible, can you do it in very
fast
> scales on a
> > mandolino?
> > I can't and I can tell you that Nigel North and Paul O'Dette
> told me they
> > cannot either or at least they decided to use thumb and
index.
> > I think we can use all the right hand fingerings we find in
> contemporary> lute pieces (like Weiss tablatures ) and just
> think we have a very small
> > (but loud) lute in our hands.
> > We need more lute players to try the fingerstyle baroque
> mandolino and
> > experiment different lute tecniques on it.
> > By the way I starded to write a book on the early mandolino
> and mandolin
> > so I'm very interested in collecting new ideas on this
> subject and to
> > learn from anybody if there is evidence.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Davide
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de>
> > To: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>; "Lute
List"
> > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:04 PM
> > Subject: Fw: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy
> 18th century
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Dear Davide,
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> About the use of the quill: I think we can't be sure if they
> didn't use
> >> it
> >> before the neapolitan mandolin became popular. The lute in
> middle ages
> >> was
> >> also played with a quill as well as the mandore in the
> renaissance. The
> >> quill could have been very useful in chamber music and
opera.
> >>
> >> I don't think that ALL mandolin players where also lute and
theorbo
> >> players.
> >> There were also amateurs who maybe not played the lute or
> theorbo. Or
> >> maybe
> >> professionel people who just played mandolin, or, or...
> >>
> >> And as there is no evidence we can't generally say that the
playing
> >> technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could also
> have been
> >> middle plus index or a mixture...
> >>
> >> Don't you think?
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >> Susanne
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>
> >>> To: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de>
> >>> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:29 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in
> italy 18th
> >>> century
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Dear Susanne
> >>>>
> >>>> the baroque mandolino ( 4, 5, 6 course) was played with
> finger tips at
> >>>> least untill the middle of the XVIII century:
> >>>> Afterwards, as the roman and neapolitan mandolines
> became popular,
> >>>> they
> >>>> started playing the six course tuned in fourths also with
> the plectrum,
> >>>> Always thumb out like the baroque lute because all the
mandolino
> >>>> palyers
> >>>> were acyuaslly lute and theorbo players. Thum and index
> alternated for
> >>>> fast
> >>>> notes, arpeggios and 2 or 3 notes chords with thumb out.
> >>>> In case you are interested I have a class of baroque
> mandolino in
> >>>> Vicenza,
> >>>> Italy, which is the only one in Italy and one of the very
> few in
> >>>> Europe.
> >>>>
> >>>> I hope this may help,
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Davide
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de>
> >>>> To: "Lute List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:45 PM
> >>>> Subject: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy
> 18th century
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dear Lute Wisdom,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It would be great if you could help me. I'm
> doing some research on
> >>>>> the baroque mandolin.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would like to know which italian baroque
> music for lute
> >>>>> instruments do we have from the first half of
> the 18th century?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Which composers are represented?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Which kinds of instruments are preferred?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What is known about playing technique? More
> "thumb-in" or
> >>>>> "thumb-out"?
> >>>>> "Two-voice-chords"- how will they be played?
> How high is the thumb
> >>>>> going?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks in advance for any helpful comments!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Susanne
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
2. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de
3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it
