Indeed. I had linked that clip in my rant on such instruments several months ago. I play the same, but use a whole lot more thumb in scalar passages.
Eugene > -----Original Message----- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stuart Walsh > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:23 PM > Cc: Eugene C. Braig IV; 'Susanne Herre'; 'Lute List' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin (with link!) > > Stuart Walsh wrote: > > Stuart Walsh wrote: > >>> > >> > >> > >> I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the > >> instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But > >> with a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart > >> McCoy who, in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that > >> mandolino strings at that short string length are going to feel like > >> steel bars...and they do. So the technique of getting a sound from > >> the strings of a lute or guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. > >> English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it would surely be far > >> too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. > > > > Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an > > Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! > > Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does > > it. Nails? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SYZ8L2aLww > > > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > >> > >> Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but > >> he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing > >> like early guitar or lute technique. > >> > >> )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk > >> playing with plectra too.) > >> > >> So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction > >> that enables players to use punteado style successfully? > >> > >> I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played > >> (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, > >> plectrum, with other instruments?? > >> > >> > >> Stuart > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > >>>> Behalf Of Susanne Herre > >>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM > >>>> To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List > >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin > >>>> > >>>> Thank you Eugene! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a > >>>> mandolin > >>>> player at all? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher > harmonics > >>>> because the section which hits the string is not as large as if > you > >>>> play with your finger... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of > one > >>>> course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens > >>>> automatically, I made this experience as well. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> All the best, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Susanne > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > >>>> From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV > >>>> > >>>> To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List > >>>> > >>>> Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM > >>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin > >>>> > >>>> I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era > >>>> iconography > >>>> that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung > >>>> mandolins. If > >>>> it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think > >>>> plectrum > >>>> use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy > >>>> iconography. > >>>> I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern > >>>> Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, > >>>> so I > >>>> am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable > >>>> volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using > >>>> quill, > >>>> I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That > >>>> said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. > >>>> Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to > >>>> technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on > >>>> same) > >>>> until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for > >>>> Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. > >>>> Best, > >>>> Eugene > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: Susanne Herre <mandolinens...@web.de> > >>>> Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am > >>>> Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin > >>>> To: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>, Lute List > >>>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>>> > > >>>> > Dear Davide, > >>>> > > >>>> > Thank you for your comments! > >>>> > > >>>> > I still think we can not be so sure about certain things > >>>> because > >>>> > we don't > >>>> > have much evidence. > >>>> > > >>>> > > - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it > >>>> > could be played > >>>> > > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. > >>>> > > >>>> > Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in > >>>> operas? > >>>> > It is possible to play with a quill... > >>>> > > >>>> > I know about some paintings which show the finger technique > >>>> (all > >>>> > in all we > >>>> > don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture > (English) > >>>> > where there > >>>> > seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture > >>>> > without any > >>>> > year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there > is > >>>> > a quill and > >>>> > I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this > >>>> > picture is > >>>> > played with it... > >>>> > > >>>> > I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the > >>>> > loudness of > >>>> > different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe also > >>>> > depends on > >>>> > different acoustics (as I would use different bows in > different > >>>> > concert > >>>> > rooms) > >>>> > But I think you get a brighter sound with a quill amd then the > >>>> > sound will > >>>> > maybe go easier to the > >>>> > listeners. But it is interesting to read about your > experience! > >>>> > > >>>> > I didn't say that amteurs used finger techniques and who says > >>>> > that playing > >>>> > with fingers is more complex than playing with a quill? > >>>> > If you would like to do it very well it is both not easy... > >>>> > I was just considering that there were persons who maybe > played > >>>> > the mandolin > >>>> > but not the lute or the theorbo. > >>>> > > >>>> > For the use of the quill I say it could be a possibility, > >>>> > "maybe". It is > >>>> > just a theory as all is what we try to find out. > >>>> > > >>>> > I think in the 17th and 18th century there was such a > diversity > >>>> > of things > >>>> > and not as much standarts as today that we would be surprised > >>>> > what is > >>>> > possible if we would have the chance to make a journey to the > >>>> > early times > >>>> > ; ) > >>>> > > >>>> > fingers: fast scales are more difficult, arpeggios more easy, > >>>> > sound is more > >>>> > smooth > >>>> > quill: arpeggio is more difficult, fast scales mire easy, > sound > >>>> > is more > >>>> > bright > >>>> > So we try to use the advantages of the techniques. The more > >>>> > possibilities we > >>>> > have, the better... > >>>> > > >>>> > Yes I also think that in general it is easier to play fast > >>>> > scales with thumb > >>>> > and index. But some things are easier to do with middle > >>>> > finger... So I think > >>>> > the best is maybe a combination. > >>>> > > >>>> > If we look at Weiss he didn't use much the alternation of > thumb > >>>> > and index, > >>>> > did he? > >>>> > So I don't think the techniques are exactly the same because > >>>> the > >>>> > mandolinhas other musical tasks and really less strings... ; ) > >>>> > > >>>> > I agree with you about "milanese", "lombardo" etc. but I'm > >>>> tired > >>>> > of talking > >>>> > about that... ; ) > >>>> > > >>>> > But I think the nomenclature of "mandolino" and "mandolin" > >>>> > is also not very > >>>> > helpful because it is only a question of the language... > >>>> > At the moment I prefer "baroque mandolin" and "neapolitan > >>>> mandolin". > >>>> > > >>>> > I really would like to see and hear your playing! Please > >>>> tell me > >>>> > when you > >>>> > will be playing near Cologne or do you have any video etc...? > >>>> > And please tell me how your book is developing. > >>>> > > >>>> > Kind regards and thanks! > >>>> > > >>>> > Susanne > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > From: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> > >>>> > To: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> > >>>> > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:56 PM > >>>> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy > >>>> > 18th century > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Dear Susanne, > >>>> > > > >>>> > > thanks for your email and your suggestions. > >>>> > > First of all I would say that while there is evidence that > >>>> baroque > >>>> > > mandolino was played with finger tips ( music, iconography) > >>>> > > - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it > >>>> > could be played > >>>> > > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > My experience is just the opposite of what Edward Martin > >>>> wrote > >>>> > and I > >>>> > > wonder if he performed with a baroque orchestra or a modern > >>>> > one or if he > >>>> > > used modern plectrums. > >>>> > > By the way I would suggest everyboby to stop using the term > >>>> > mandolino> LOMBARDO or MILANESE which is a modern (XIX th > >>>> > century) term referred to > >>>> > > the 6 single string mandoline that developed and was > >>>> played in > >>>> > the XIX > >>>> > > century untill the beginning of the XX century ( played > >>>> with a > >>>> > cherrybark> plectrum). > >>>> > > It is a very common mistake also here in Italy ( museums, > >>>> exhibition > >>>> > > catalogues, mandoline makers ect....) very misleading. > >>>> > > When I started playing the baroque mandolino, more than 20 > >>>> > years ago - > >>>> > > having previously played the neapolitan with the plectrum - > I > >>>> > thought just > >>>> > > like you and I tried to play chamber music with a quill > >>>> > for some pieces > >>>> > > which didin't require fingers for polyphonic passages, > >>>> because > >>>> > I thought > >>>> > > it could be louder, but then I realized it is not. > >>>> > > I also tried to play the same piece in a concert or concert- > >>>> > lecture using > >>>> > > the two different tecniques and every body ( musicians, > >>>> > audience,> instrument makers...) noticed that if you play > >>>> > with fingers it is much > >>>> > > louder and sounds better than with any plectrum plectrum. > >>>> > > Apart form the loudness you cannot compare the quality > >>>> > of sound you get > >>>> > > with finger tips. > >>>> > > Unless you have a bad instrument you will agree, if you > try.( > >>>> > I read you > >>>> > > have an Hasenfuss so I suppose it is good and loud enough) > >>>> > > The mandolino plucked with finger tips is very loud, louder > >>>> > than a > >>>> > > neapolitan or genovese mandoline played with historical > >>>> quills; > >>>> > > I play many different original mandolini made in the XVIII > >>>> > century, with a > >>>> > > low string tension, from different makers and different > >>>> string > >>>> > lenght as > >>>> > > well as copies and I never had any problems of volume > >>>> > performing with > >>>> > > baroque orchestra in a theatre. > >>>> > > So I really cannot understand whay you say that for cahmber > >>>> > music they > >>>> > > needed the plectrum, and why XVII and XVIII century amateurs > >>>> > should have > >>>> > > used a tecnique which was more difficult and that nobody > >>>> > used,except,> maybe, folk musicians on other instruments. > >>>> > > I'm sure you know (and tried )that fast arpeggios are > >>>> > much more difficult > >>>> > > with the plectrum than with finger tips. > >>>> > > The sound is brighter but not louder with plectrum. It could > >>>> > almost be the > >>>> > > same if you use a modern thick plectrum ( as unfortunatly > >>>> many > >>>> > mandolin> players do) > >>>> > > but if you try with a quill it is not loud at all. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > The professional mandolin player did not exist before the > >>>> neapolitan > >>>> > > mandoline became popular, and there is evedence that many > >>>> > theorbists and > >>>> > > lute player played the mandolino and composed music for > >>>> it. Of > >>>> > course they > >>>> > > played with the only tecnique they knew. > >>>> > > Everything is possible in theory but you do not have any > >>>> > evidence to say > >>>> > > the contrary, do you? > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Anyway the main question is that most of the music suvived ( > >>>> > staff and > >>>> > > tablature) requires the use of the fingers (not only the > very > >>>> > few solo > >>>> > > pieces) because is not entirely nonodic and unless you don't > >>>> > change the > >>>> > > chords positions or arpeggios ( as we have evidence > >>>> looking at > >>>> the > >>>> > > corrections that XVIII century players did in some pieces). > >>>> > > Besides I don't think that a lutenist/ thoerbist would'nt > >>>> have > >>>> > add some > >>>> > > harmony playing a piece written in a single monodic line). > >>>> > > > >>>> > > You are right when you say that "there is no evidence the > >>>> playing > >>>> > >> technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could > also > >>>> > have been > >>>> > >> middle plus index or a mixture..."> > >>>> > > Index and medium could be possible, can you do it in very > >>>> fast > >>>> > scales on a > >>>> > > mandolino? > >>>> > > I can't and I can tell you that Nigel North and Paul O'Dette > >>>> > told me they > >>>> > > cannot either or at least they decided to use thumb and > >>>> index. > >>>> > > I think we can use all the right hand fingerings we find in > >>>> > contemporary> lute pieces (like Weiss tablatures ) and just > >>>> > think we have a very small > >>>> > > (but loud) lute in our hands. > >>>> > > We need more lute players to try the fingerstyle baroque > >>>> > mandolino and > >>>> > > experiment different lute tecniques on it. > >>>> > > By the way I starded to write a book on the early mandolino > >>>> > and mandolin > >>>> > > so I'm very interested in collecting new ideas on this > >>>> > subject and to > >>>> > > learn from anybody if there is evidence. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Best wishes, > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Davide > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > > From: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> > >>>> > > To: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>; "Lute > >>>> List" > >>>> > > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:04 PM > >>>> > > Subject: Fw: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in > italy > >>>> > 18th century > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Dear Davide, > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Thanks! > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> About the use of the quill: I think we can't be sure if > they > >>>> > didn't use > >>>> > >> it > >>>> > >> before the neapolitan mandolin became popular. The lute in > >>>> > middle ages > >>>> > >> was > >>>> > >> also played with a quill as well as the mandore in the > >>>> > renaissance. The > >>>> > >> quill could have been very useful in chamber music and > >>>> opera. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> I don't think that ALL mandolin players where also lute and > >>>> theorbo > >>>> > >> players. > >>>> > >> There were also amateurs who maybe not played the lute or > >>>> > theorbo. Or > >>>> > >> maybe > >>>> > >> professionel people who just played mandolin, or, or... > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> And as there is no evidence we can't generally say that the > >>>> playing > >>>> > >> technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could > also > >>>> > have been > >>>> > >> middle plus index or a mixture... > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Don't you think? > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Best wishes, > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Susanne > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > >>> From: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> > >>>> > >>> To: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> > >>>> > >>> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:29 PM > >>>> > >>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in > >>>> > italy 18th > >>>> > >>> century > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Dear Susanne > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> the baroque mandolino ( 4, 5, 6 course) was played with > >>>> > finger tips at > >>>> > >>>> least untill the middle of the XVIII century: > >>>> > >>>> Afterwards, as the roman and neapolitan mandolines > >>>> > became popular, > >>>> > >>>> they > >>>> > >>>> started playing the six course tuned in fourths also with > >>>> > the plectrum, > >>>> > >>>> Always thumb out like the baroque lute because all the > >>>> mandolino > >>>> > >>>> palyers > >>>> > >>>> were acyuaslly lute and theorbo players. Thum and index > >>>> > alternated for > >>>> > >>>> fast > >>>> > >>>> notes, arpeggios and 2 or 3 notes chords with thumb out. > >>>> > >>>> In case you are interested I have a class of baroque > >>>> > mandolino in > >>>> > >>>> Vicenza, > >>>> > >>>> Italy, which is the only one in Italy and one of the very > >>>> > few in > >>>> > >>>> Europe. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I hope this may help, > >>>> > >>>> Best regards, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Davide > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > >>>> From: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> > >>>> > >>>> To: "Lute List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:45 PM > >>>> > >>>> Subject: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy > >>>> > 18th century > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Dear Lute Wisdom, > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> It would be great if you could help me. I'm > >>>> > doing some research on > >>>> > >>>>> the baroque mandolin. > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> I would like to know which italian baroque > >>>> > music for lute > >>>> > >>>>> instruments do we have from the first half of > >>>> > the 18th century? > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Which composers are represented? > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Which kinds of instruments are preferred? > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> What is known about playing technique? More > >>>> > "thumb-in" or > >>>> > >>>>> "thumb-out"? > >>>> > >>>>> "Two-voice-chords"- how will they be played? > >>>> > How high is the thumb > >>>> > >>>>> going? > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Thanks in advance for any helpful comments! > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Susanne > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>>> > >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> References > >>>> > >>>> 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu > >>>> 2. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de > >>>> 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >>>> 4. mailto:davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > >
