Dear Anthony,
Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come to mind:
1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of
significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how
near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a
lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a
measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in
10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm,
which is much more accurate but not very precise.
In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated
as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps,
not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very
finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that
bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find
troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut
rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with
total accuracy....
2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets
might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray
harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that
fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size:
the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest
set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later required).
Martyn
--- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind<[email protected]> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind<[email protected]>
Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets
and bridge
To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 18:02
Thanks Martyn, I should have given you more time to think about this.
"At a glance you're right, the fretting does look all the same
diameter! Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
that's
all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done
so
as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
frets."
Right, if we use equal frets to compensate for a raised kneck, then we
would use
equal but thin frets? Would you think this is the case, here?
Dowland suggests "Fret 1 and 2: shoudl have the value of the
countertenor, ie
4th course?
Of course it is hard to evaluate from a painting and with zoom, and
also the
frets are double, but the thickness of the top fret (and all the
others) looks
about equivalent to the fourth string.
However, I think it might be a little silly to be too literal in
measures from a
painting.
The thing which made me feel that the lute might be deliberately chosen
with a
problematic setting (either kneck pulled up, or badly fretted) is the
way the
other "instruments" are said to be misaligned, according to the
articles I have
glanced over; but I agree with Lex that it is hard to say anything for
sure.
It is rather that I read several lutenists mentioning the thin strings,
as
though we could be sure this is good practise of the time.
regards
Anthony
My earlier response to Anthony:
Anthony
Sorry to delay answering - I will reply to this but if you're in a
rush
then send it off. I need to spend proper time studying the picture.
At a glance you're right, the fretting does look all the same
diameter! Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
that's
all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done
so
as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
frets. Alternatively, some early writer (Gerle?) mentions an effect
of
strings buzzing on frets (I think to cut through like a Bray harp) -
could this lute be set up to play like this?
Also the strings do indeed seem to come from the top of the bridge
(or
almost) - this is not really possible since in practice since simple
statics will make the point half way between the top of the string
hole
and top of the bridge. However it could be that the maker has made
the
distance VERY small (looks a bit like this); also if the tension is
fairly low then static friction can hold the strings in a higher (or
lowever) position if required. Do some tests yourself and see how
easy
or hard it is to make a string leave from the top of the bridge.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind<[1][email protected]> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind<[2][email protected]>
Subject: Tr : Re : [LUTE] [off list] Google Art project
To: "Ed Durbrow"<[3][email protected]>, "Martyn Hodgson"
<[4][email protected]>
Cc: [5][email protected]
Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 14:35
Dear Ed, Martyn, and All,
As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only
given it an
admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about
the
significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may
be
able to
enlighten me?
The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite
different from
Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical
stringing
of the
time?
It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too
much
importance to this detail which the painter might have considered
insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the
practise
of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as
it
was
deemed by those knowledgeable in luting.
The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends
to
give the
(possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might
be
almost
as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not
necessarily
informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory
(doubtful?)
or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up
as
a
painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain
details
of
instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been
focussed on
(at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the
complex
primary symbolic message conveyed.
For example, it seems to have been established that some of the
instruments are
misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to
the
date of
Good Friday 1533.
"But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the
instruments
to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's
dial,
two
quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously
misaligned
for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an
oversight on
the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was
the
astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer (...)"
"The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the
heavens out of
joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is
suggested by
the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed
by
the lute
with a broken string on the shelf below (...)"
[1][6]http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-gam
e-1291
477.html
That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of
the
lute is
broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is
evident;
but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the
would-be
viewer
(just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was
not
ideally
strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those
principles were
already the same as those at J. Dowland's time, around 1610)?
I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double,
would appear
to be almost equal in thickness.
At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high
as
possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string
height have
been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at
fret
8 (due
to the equal fretting)?
The presence of both these features together, could argue against
the
likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that
the
painter
had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that
the
painter
is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way;
although
if we
accept
that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time
(1533), or
just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that
those in the
know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be
difficult
to play.
If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later
suggestion by
Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's
'OTHER
NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates
fret sizes
to strings of the lute,
Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course
3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd
5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd
7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st
(PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was
a
flaw in my
reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal
frets, and
this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make
the
bridge
higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be
compensating
for
something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge.
Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first
added
loaded
strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus
perhaps the
expected
fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and
the
raising
at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting.
I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin,
particularly
relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string,
might
be thinner
than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest
possible
string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point
out that
some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have
been
chosen
by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they
represent, and
the bolder
thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to
contrast
this.
In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings
(possibly
both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism,
which
is also
present in so many other structural elements in the painting,
rather
than
significant of a general practise.
These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps
simply
show my
ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as
equal; or
many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular
problem
(I seem
to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my
"balbutiements".
Regards
Anthony
----- Message d'origine ----
De : Ed Durbrow<[2][7][email protected]>
A : LuteNet list<[3][8][email protected]>
Envoye le : Sam 5 fevrier 2011, 3h 32min 30s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project
I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the
link.
Wow!
I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture
in
my
academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year
or
next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute
lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on.
Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was
using
carbon fiber. :-)
[3][1][4][9]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/
the-am
bas
sadors
Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[2][5][10]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
[3][6][11]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
--
References
1.
[7][12]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-a
mbas
2. [8][13]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
3. [9][14]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
To get on or off this list see list information at
[10][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1.
[16]http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-129
1477.html
2.
[17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
jp
3.
[18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
4.
[19]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am
5. [20]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
6. [21]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
7.
[22]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas
8. [23]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
9. [24]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
10. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
6. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
9. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am
10. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
11. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
12. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas
13. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
14. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
16.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
19. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am
20. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
21. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
22. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas
23. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
24. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
