Another inaccuracy : the diameter of the strings should gradually decrease from the nut towards the bridge when viewed from this angle. As far as I can tell, they do not. I think Holbein was a great artist who knew what to paint accurately when it really mattered. A few 21th century luters pondering over his humble works wouldn't have worried him too much I presume. LvS Op 9 feb 2011, om 23:01 heeft Jarosław Lipski het volgende geschreven:
> Anthony, > > I agree, it is possible that Holbein painted the ambassador's lute. However, > there is some inconsistency in the way he treated details. Some of them are > very accurate (like the music), some are not (the globe). On the other hand > we don't know who was wrong Holbein or the drawing on the globe (they didn't > have computers then and we don't know who was a cartographer). If he was able > to depict proportions of string gauges, then why suddenly he lost all his > patience while painting the bridge holes ? One can see that he used very > small diameter brushes, so there wouldn't have been any problem, had he seen > proper size holes on the lute. Maybe he was not a lute expert, but I think he > just saw big holes on the instrument. What was the history of that > instrument?. Maybe the owner changed stringing for lighter one, but it's > difficult to imagine such a thick gut to fit the hole on 6c and to sound > reasonably well. > Hmm....really makes me wonder. > All best > > Jaroslaw > > > W dniu 2011-02-09 16:02, Anthony Hind pisze: >> Yes of course you are right about the painting not necessarily being >> accurate. >> Although Val's arguments seem rather good to make us think it was the >> ambassador's lute. >> >> Generally, I think lute makers use as small a hole as they can get away with >> (at >> least they seem to do so now). Whenever I have changed to a thicker string >> types >> (change of pitch diapason, for example) I have had to have the hole widened. >> Lute makers don't seem to allow for this. I suppose the smaller the hole, the >> stronger the bridge? Although, the larger the number of courses and the >> bigger >> the basses, the more important that would become, perhaps? >> >> So I suppose the thinness of the strings in relation to the holes doesn't >> make >> much sense. >> You are right that at least on later Baroque lutes th small size of the holes >> has been used to argue for loaded strings, but possibly not on a lute like >> this. >> I wonder? >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Message d'origine ---- >> De : Jarosław Lipski<[email protected]> >> À : "[email protected]"<[email protected]> >> Envoyé le : Mer 9 février 2011, 12h 18min 24s >> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy >> >> I wonder to what extent we can rely on painter's accuracy...e.g.. big >> bridge holes. As far as I can remember it was said that the evidence >> suggests narrow BH which was to support the loaded strings theory. On >> Holbein's painting we have enormous holes in comparison to the string >> gauges on the lute. Would a painter bother about realistic hole diameter ? >> The same with high action. No one could examine that lute if it was >> playable, or was a professional instrument.....or maybe it was just a prop. >> On the other hand one of my lutes have an equal fretting and is very >> easy to play. >> >> JL >> >> >> W dniu 2011-02-09 09:49, Martyn Hodgson pisze: >>> Dear Anthony, >>> >>> Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come to mind: >>> >>> 1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of >>> significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how >>> near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a >>> lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a >>> measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in >>> 10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm, >>> which is much more accurate but not very precise. >>> In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated >>> as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps, >>> not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very >>> finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that >>> bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find >>> troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut >>> rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with >>> total accuracy.... >>> >>> 2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets >>> might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray >>> harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that >>> fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size: >>> the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest >>> set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later required). >>> >>> Martyn >>> >>> >>> --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind<[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> From: Anthony Hind<[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets >>> and bridge >>> To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[email protected]> >>> Cc: [email protected] >>> Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 18:02 >>> >>> Thanks Martyn, I should have given you more time to think about this. >>> "At a glance you're right, the fretting does look all the same >>> diameter! Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and >>> that's >>> all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done >>> so >>> as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper >>> frets." >>> Right, if we use equal frets to compensate for a raised kneck, then we >>> would use >>> equal but thin frets? Would you think this is the case, here? >>> Dowland suggests "Fret 1 and 2: shoudl have the value of the >>> countertenor, ie >>> 4th course? >>> Of course it is hard to evaluate from a painting and with zoom, and >>> also the >>> frets are double, but the thickness of the top fret (and all the >>> others) looks >>> about equivalent to the fourth string. >>> However, I think it might be a little silly to be too literal in >>> measures from a >>> painting. >>> The thing which made me feel that the lute might be deliberately chosen >>> with a >>> problematic setting (either kneck pulled up, or badly fretted) is the >>> way the >>> other "instruments" are said to be misaligned, according to the >>> articles I have >>> glanced over; but I agree with Lex that it is hard to say anything for >>> sure. >>> It is rather that I read several lutenists mentioning the thin strings, >>> as >>> though we could be sure this is good practise of the time. >>> regards >>> Anthony >>> My earlier response to Anthony: >>> Anthony >>> Sorry to delay answering - I will reply to this but if you're in a >>> rush >>> then send it off. I need to spend proper time studying the picture. >>> At a glance you're right, the fretting does look all the same >>> diameter! Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and >>> that's >>> all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done >>> so >>> as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper >>> frets. Alternatively, some early writer (Gerle?) mentions an effect >>> of >>> strings buzzing on frets (I think to cut through like a Bray harp) - >>> could this lute be set up to play like this? >>> Also the strings do indeed seem to come from the top of the bridge >>> (or >>> almost) - this is not really possible since in practice since simple >>> statics will make the point half way between the top of the string >>> hole >>> and top of the bridge. However it could be that the maker has made >>> the >>> distance VERY small (looks a bit like this); also if the tension is >>> fairly low then static friction can hold the strings in a higher (or >>> lowever) position if required. Do some tests yourself and see how >>> easy >>> or hard it is to make a string leave from the top of the bridge. >>> rgds >>> Martyn >>> --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind<[1][email protected]> wrote: >>> From: Anthony Hind<[2][email protected]> >>> Subject: Tr : Re : [LUTE] [off list] Google Art project >>> To: "Ed Durbrow"<[3][email protected]>, "Martyn Hodgson" >>> <[4][email protected]> >>> Cc: [5][email protected] >>> Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 14:35 >>> Dear Ed, Martyn, and All, >>> As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only >>> given it an >>> admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about >>> the >>> significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may >>> be >>> able to >>> enlighten me? >>> The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite >>> different from >>> Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical >>> stringing >>> of the >>> time? >>> It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too >>> much >>> importance to this detail which the painter might have considered >>> insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the >>> practise >>> of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as >>> it >>> was >>> deemed by those knowledgeable in luting. >>> The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends >>> to >>> give the >>> (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might >>> be >>> almost >>> as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not >>> necessarily >>> informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory >>> (doubtful?) >>> or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up >>> as >>> a >>> painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain >>> details >>> of >>> instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been >>> focussed on >>> (at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the >>> complex >>> primary symbolic message conveyed. >>> For example, it seems to have been established that some of the >>> instruments are >>> misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to >>> the >>> date of >>> Good Friday 1533. >>> "But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the >>> instruments >>> to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's >>> dial, >>> two >>> quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously >>> misaligned >>> for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an >>> oversight on >>> the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was >>> the >>> astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer (...)" >>> "The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the >>> heavens out of >>> joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is >>> suggested by >>> the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed >>> by >>> the lute >>> with a broken string on the shelf below (...)" >>> [1][6]http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-gam >>> e-1291 >>> 477.html >>> That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of >>> the >>> lute is >>> broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is >>> evident; >>> but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the >>> would-be >>> viewer >>> (just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was >>> not >>> ideally >>> strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those >>> principles were >>> already the same as those at J. Dowland's time, around 1610)? >>> I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double, >>> would appear >>> to be almost equal in thickness. >>> At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high >>> as >>> possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string >>> height have >>> been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at >>> fret >>> 8 (due >>> to the equal fretting)? >>> The presence of both these features together, could argue against >>> the >>> likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that >>> the >>> painter >>> had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that >>> the >>> painter >>> is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way; >>> although >>> if we >>> accept >>> that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time >>> (1533), or >>> just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that >>> those in the >>> know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be >>> difficult >>> to play. >>> If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later >>> suggestion by >>> Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's >>> 'OTHER >>> NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates >>> fret sizes >>> to strings of the lute, >>> Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course >>> 3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd >>> 5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd >>> 7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st >>> (PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was >>> a >>> flaw in my >>> reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal >>> frets, and >>> this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make >>> the >>> bridge >>> higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be >>> compensating >>> for >>> something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge. >>> Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first >>> added >>> loaded >>> strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus >>> perhaps the >>> expected >>> fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and >>> the >>> raising >>> at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting. >>> I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin, >>> particularly >>> relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string, >>> might >>> be thinner >>> than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest >>> possible >>> string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point >>> out that >>> some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have >>> been >>> chosen >>> by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they >>> represent, and >>> the bolder >>> thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to >>> contrast >>> this. >>> In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings >>> (possibly >>> both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism, >>> which >>> is also >>> present in so many other structural elements in the painting, >>> rather >>> than >>> significant of a general practise. >>> These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps >>> simply >>> show my >>> ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as >>> equal; or >>> many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular >>> problem >>> (I seem >>> to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my >>> "balbutiements". >>> Regards >>> Anthony >>> ----- Message d'origine ---- >>> De : Ed Durbrow<[2][7][email protected]> >>> A : LuteNet list<[3][8][email protected]> >>> Envoye le : Sam 5 fevrier 2011, 3h 32min 30s >>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project >>> I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the >>> link. >>> Wow! >>> I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture >>> in >>> my >>> academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year >>> or >>> next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute >>> lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on. >>> Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was >>> using >>> carbon fiber. :-) >>> [3][1][4][9]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/ >>> the-am >>> bas >>> sadors >>> Ed Durbrow >>> Saitama, Japan >>> [2][5][10]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>> [3][6][11]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>> -- >>> References >>> 1. >>> [7][12]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-a >>> mbas >>> 2. [8][13]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>> 3. [9][14]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [10][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> -- >>> References >>> 1. >>> [16]http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-129 >>> 1477.html >>> 2. >>> [17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]. >>> jp >>> 3. >>> [18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >>> 4. >>> [19]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >>> 5. [20]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>> 6. [21]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>> 7. >>> [22]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >>> 8. [23]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>> 9. [24]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>> 10. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >>> 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >>> 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >>> 4. >>> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >>> 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >>> 6. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291 >>> 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >>> 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >>> 9. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >>> 10. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>> 11. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>> 12. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >>> 13. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>> 14. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>> 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 16. >>> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html >>> 17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >>> 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >>> 19. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >>> 20. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>> 21. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>> 22. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >>> 23. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>> 24. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>> 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Tekst wstawiony przez Panda GP 2011: >> >> Jesli nie chcesz otrzymywac podobnych wiadomosci, wybierz ponizszy link, >> aby zaklasyfikowac ten e-mail jako SPAM: >> http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_273&SPAM=true&path=C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\user\Ustawienia%20lokalne\Dane%20aplikacji\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202011\AntiSpam >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > >
