Love it! Your ironic views lighten up my day! If I might remark, though, you forgot the anthrax spores and the bovine spongiform encephalitis this time. Excellent point about needing a 'hot room' for gluing, so the stuff doesn't gel before you get the joint together. Similarly, you need a hot room for epoxy, so that it will kick off at all. I must say that I am biased because the fragrance of hot glue takes me back to happy days of my youth when I worked as a farm labourer on summer afternoons in a field just a few yards away from a knacker's yard where the raw ingredients for hide glue were separated from the rest of the ex-animals. Unfortunately my love of the lip-smacking aroma is not shared by other residents of my abode . . . Thank you for drawing out these fond memories. Bill From: Garry Warber <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2011, 23:19 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Very cool! I stand in shame at my arrogance... I found the stuff a misery, actually, and as for the reversal properties I tended to do more damage than good. I got to where I just planed the hunk off and made a new one from scratch. Epoxy actually separates better for me. That was then, now I'm a free man! Also, I tend to work in cold shops. Do you keep a special "hot room" for hide gluing like the early sufferers/hot glue users? I don't know which is actually stronger; especially since hide glue comes in a number of strengths, but I wouldn't be surprised if hide glue actually is the strongest bond strength. Have you tried Hot Stuff instant for rosette repair? Other than it's toxic and bad for your lungs, it works great! Garry From: [1]sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:50 PM To: [2]Garry Warber ; [3][1][email protected] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Hi-- I have glued ribs and all the other parts of a lute with hide glue too. I do know there are some places for titebond such as when carving the rose and a piece breaks, or making the mold... Sterling But Sterling... I'm (or was) a luthier... I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as "reversible" with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think... Garry From: sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM To: Garry Warber ; [4][2][email protected] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the "old ones" used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of "interpretive gimmicks." I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -----Original Message----- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [5][3][email protected] ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that "our" gut is rather acoustically different from "their". Lets not forget to use the honest modifier "approximation of". RT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6][4][email protected]> To: <[7][5][email protected]>; "andy butler" <[8][6][email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? > > The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the > Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the > sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors > heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. > > MH > --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler <[9][7][email protected]> wrote: > > From: andy butler <[10][8][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? > To: [11][9][email protected] > Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 > > David van Ooijen wrote: > > The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, > actually. > > If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if > cost > > is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the > > modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the > > best option. > Beginner's questions. > Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time > that someone mentioned earlier? > Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) > andy > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][12][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [13][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><HEAD></HEAD> <BODY dir=ltr> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <DIV>But Sterling... I'm (or was) a luthier... <IMG style="BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none" class="wlEmoticon wlEmoticon-smile" alt=Smile src="cid:C406196480C44732A36F7147D25ECD70@GarryPC"> I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as "reversible" with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... <IMG style="BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none" class="wlEmoticon wlEmoticon-smile" alt=Smile src="cid:C406196480C44732A36F7147D25ECD70@GarryPC"> It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think...</DIV> <DIV>Garry </DIV> <DIV style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5"> <DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=[14][12][email protected] href="mailto:[15][13][email protected]";>sterling price</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM</DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[16][14][email protected] href="mailto:[17][15][email protected]";>Garry Warber</A> ; <A title=[18][16][email protected]
href="mailto:[19][17][email protected]";>[20][18][email protected] du</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings?</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> <DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons.</SPAN></B></FONT></DIV> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"></SPAN></B></FONT> </DIV> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">--Sterling<VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR></SPAN></B></FONT></DIV> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"></SPAN></B></FONT> </DIV> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"></SPAN></B></FONT> </DIV> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [LUTE] Re: long strings?<BR></FONT><BR>Or, As I enjoy assuming, the "old ones" used the best they had, and if <BR>they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) <BR>Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well <BR>the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of <BR>"interpretive gimmicks." I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we <BR>can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-)<BR>Garry<BR><BR>-----Original Message----- <BR>From: Roman Turovsky<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM<BR>To: Martyn Hodgson ; <A href="mailto:[21][19][email protected]"; ymailto="mailto:[22][20][email protected]";>[23][21][email protected] h.edu</A > ; andy butler<BR>Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?<BR><BR>There is a great likelihood that "our" gut is rather acoustically different<BR>from "their".<BR>Lets not forget to use the honest modifier "approximation of".<BR>RT<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Martyn Hodgson" <<A href="mailto:[24][22][email protected]"; ymailto="mailto:[25][23][email protected]";>[26]hodgsonmartyn@ya hoo. co.uk</A>><BR>To: <<A href="mailto:[27][24][email protected]"; ymailto="mailto:[28][25][email protected]";>[29][26][email protected] h.edu</A >>; "andy butler" <<A href="mailto:[30][27][email protected]"; ymailto="mailto:[31][28][email protected]";>[32][29]akbutler@tiscal i.co.uk< /A>><BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM<BR>Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?<BR><BR><BR>><BR>> The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the<BR>> Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the<BR>> sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors<BR>> heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials.<BR>><BR>> MH<BR>> --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler <<A href="mailto:[33][30][email protected]"; ymailto="mailto:[34]mailto:[31][email protected]";>[35]akbutler@tis cali .co.uk</A>> wrote:<BR>><BR>> From: andy butler <<A href="mailto:[36][32][email protected]"; ymailto="mailto:[37][33][email protected]";>[38][34]akbutler@tiscal i.co.uk< /A>><BR>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?<BR>> To: <A href="mailto:[39]mailto:[35][email protected]"; ymailto="mailto:[40][36][email protected]";>[41][37][email protected] h.edu</A ><BR>> Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27<BR>><BR>> David van Ooijen wrote:<BR>> > The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better,<BR>> actually.<BR>> > If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if<BR>> cost<BR>> > is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the<BR>> > modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the<BR>> > best option.<BR>> Beginner's questions.<BR>> Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time<BR>> that someone mentioned earlier?<BR>> Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?)<BR>> andy<BR>> To get on or off this list see list information at<BR>> [1]<A href="[42][38]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html"; target=_blank>[43][39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index .htm l</A><BR>><BR>> --<BR>><BR>> References<BR>><BR>> 1. <A href="[44][40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html"; target=_blank>[45][41]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index .htm l</A><BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> </BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50-- -- -- References 1. mailto:[42][email protected] 2. mailto:[43][email protected] 3. mailto:[44][email protected] 4. mailto:[45][email protected] 5. mailto:[46][email protected] 6. mailto:[47][email protected] 7. mailto:[48][email protected] 8. mailto:[49][email protected] 9. mailto:[50][email protected] 10. mailto:[51][email protected] 11. mailto:[52][email protected] 12. [53]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. [54]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. mailto:[55][email protected] 15. mailto:[56][email protected] 16. mailto:[57][email protected] 17. mailto:[58][email protected] 18. mailto:[59][email protected] 19. mailto:[60][email protected] 20. mailto:[61][email protected] 21. mailto:[62][email protected] 22. mailto:[63][email protected] 23. mailto:[64][email protected] 24. mailto:[65][email protected] 25. mailto:[66][email protected] 26. mailto:[67][email protected] 27. mailto:[68][email protected] 28. mailto:[69][email protected] 29. mailto:[70][email protected] 30. mailto:[71][email protected] 31. mailto:[72][email protected] 32. mailto:[73][email protected] 33. mailto:[74][email protected] 34. mailto:[75][email protected] 35. mailto:[76][email protected] 36. mailto:[77][email protected] 37. mailto:[78][email protected] 38. mailto:[79][email protected] 39. mailto:[80][email protected] 40. mailto:[81][email protected] 41. mailto:[82][email protected] 42. [83]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 43. [84]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 44. [85]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 45. [86]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. mailto:[email protected] 7. mailto:[email protected] 8. mailto:[email protected] 9. mailto:[email protected] 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. mailto:[email protected] 13. mailto:[email protected] 14. mailto:[email protected] 15. mailto:[email protected] 16. mailto:[email protected] 17. mailto:[email protected] 18. mailto:[email protected] 19. mailto:[email protected] 20. mailto:[email protected] 21. mailto:[email protected] 22. mailto:[email protected] 23. mailto:[email protected] 24. mailto:[email protected] 25. mailto:[email protected] 26. mailto:[email protected] 27. mailto:[email protected] 28. mailto:[email protected] 29. mailto:[email protected] 30. mailto:[email protected] 31. mailto:[email protected] 32. mailto:[email protected] 33. mailto:[email protected] 34. mailto:[email protected] 35. mailto:[email protected] 36. mailto:[email protected] 37. mailto:[email protected] 38. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm 40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 41. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm 42. mailto:[email protected] 43. mailto:[email protected] 44. mailto:[email protected] 45. mailto:[email protected] 46. mailto:[email protected] 47. mailto:[email protected] 48. mailto:[email protected] 49. mailto:[email protected] 50. mailto:[email protected] 51. mailto:[email protected] 52. mailto:[email protected] 53. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 54. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 55. mailto:[email protected] 56. mailto:[email protected] 57. mailto:[email protected] 58. mailto:[email protected] 59. mailto:[email protected] 60. mailto:[email protected] 61. mailto:[email protected] 62. mailto:[email protected] 63. mailto:[email protected] 64. mailto:[email protected] 65. mailto:[email protected] 66. mailto:[email protected] 67. mailto:[email protected] 68. mailto:[email protected] 69. mailto:[email protected] 70. mailto:[email protected] 71. mailto:[email protected] 72. mailto:[email protected] 73. mailto:[email protected] 74. mailto:[email protected] 75. mailto:[email protected] 76. mailto:[email protected] 77. mailto:[email protected] 78. mailto:[email protected] 79. mailto:[email protected] 80. mailto:[email protected] 81. mailto:[email protected] 82. mailto:[email protected] 83. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 84. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 85. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 86. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
