Dear All,
Dan, when you say "the editor" in your last sentence, you mean Dr
Fellowes (or whoever it was) not me - I said nothing about the absolute
pitch. My guess is that the "general pitch" at this period was around a
tone lower than modern, so a "G lute" may have been around 67cm string
length. I think one of the songs uses a "bass" lute in (nominal) D, so
this may have been quite a big beast.
The strange tuning used for "The Leaves be Green" is a kind of conceit
(first pointed out by Tony Rooley many years ago - starting with a
nominal G lute, the only courses which have *not* been changed in tuning
are A and G, standing for "Anne Greene".
Best wishes,
Martin
On 25/10/2011 17:28, Daniel Winheld wrote:
I vote for the "sensible compromise"- g stays "g" (easy!) and a low Bb. B flat was used by other lute
composers- see some of Nicolas Vallet's pieces- he has the 10th course CC scoradature'd down to low Bb in at least three pieces
in his "Secret des Muses". He also wrote for 9 course lute, so a low C on the 9th could obviously go down. Pushing the
envelope has always been the norm; and when one end of the envelope is already at the tearing point it's the other end that has
to give. Is this the John Danyel piece "Mrs Anne Grene her leaves bee greene" based on the song "The Leaves be
Greene?"
There is an English Lute Society edition of Danyel's complete lute works, and that one
is printed as per the original and re-intabulated (if that is the right term) by Martin
Shepherd into standard tuning. Works very well that way- but I haven't had the courage to
re-tune my archlute (no 9 or 10 course lutes in the house) to try the original. The
editor's opinion is that the actual pitches go 1/2 step lower than the "sensible
compromise" i.e., f# 1st and AA 9th.
Dan
On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:21 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
Dear Everybody,
not sure if this has been discussed before, as the archives are unavailable
currently. In John Danyels 1606 publication, there is a piece on the last pages
(22-3) with a special lute tuning. It is a solo piece (variations on
Greensleeves), and Danyel gives a chart with the intervals, but no pitches.
Translated into pitch, the tuning would possibly be:
1. B4 - F#4 - D4 - A3 - D3 - C3 | A2 - G2 - C2
Or
2. E4 - B3 - G3 - D3 - G2 - F2 | D2 - C2 - G1
Or
3. D4 - A3 - F3 - C3 - F2 - Eb2 | C2 - Bb1 - F1
The first line is based on the lowest bass string on lutes at the time (C2). In
that case, the 1st course would be higher (and thinner) than gut strings can be
made for a G-lute with VSL of about 58-63 cm.
The 2nd and 3rd lines are based on the lowest bass strings for the chitarrone
or the archlute. In that case, the 1st course has the pitch of a tenor lute.
Played with the 1st course as B4, the variations on Greensleeves would be in
C-major, and played with the 1st course as E4, the variations would be in
F-major.
Of course, one might argue that somewhere in the middle is a sensible
compromise, i. e. 1st course G4 with the 9th course Bb1. That way, however,
Danyel's Greensleeves would be in A-flat-major. A bit awkward for 1606 IMO.
My questions are:
1. Is there evidence of very small 9c lutes (about 50 cm VSL) in Britain around
1600? (First line of tuning)
2. Is there evidence of theorboed 9c lutes (not to speak of Britain around
1600)? (2nd and 3rd lines of tuning)
Mathias
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