Of course- that's why I used the term "editor" rather than name you
directly. Just ambiguous enough, since I wasn't sure it that it wasn't
you. My apologies, Martin.
A nine course lute at this time in England would no doubt conform to
Downland's description- 10 frets on the neck ("....hath been lengthened
by the French Nation to tenne frets" -guessing, don't have my
"Varietie" handy) -so that nominal "G" lute goes down about another
tone, so probably it's an "F" lute at 67 cm.
Dan
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Martin Shepherd" <[email protected]>
To: "Lute List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 1:30:18 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Danyel
Dear All,
Dan, when you say "the editor" in your last sentence, you mean Dr
Fellowes (or whoever it was) not me - I said nothing about the absolute
pitch. My guess is that the "general pitch" at this period was around
a
tone lower than modern, so a "G lute" may have been around 67cm string
length. I think one of the songs uses a "bass" lute in (nominal) D, so
this may have been quite a big beast.
The strange tuning used for "The Leaves be Green" is a kind of conceit
(first pointed out by Tony Rooley many years ago - starting with a
nominal G lute, the only courses which have *not* been changed in
tuning
are A and G, standing for "Anne Greene".
Best wishes,
Martin
On 25/10/2011 17:28, Daniel Winheld wrote:
> I vote for the "sensible compromise"- g stays "g" (easy!) and a low
Bb. B flat was used by other lute composers- see some of Nicolas
Vallet's pieces- he has the 10th course CC scoradature'd down to low Bb
in at least three pieces in his "Secret des Muses". He also wrote for 9
course lute, so a low C on the 9th could obviously go down. Pushing the
envelope has always been the norm; and when one end of the envelope is
already at the tearing point it's the other end that has to give. Is
this the John Danyel piece "Mrs Anne Grene her leaves bee greene"
based on the song "The Leaves be Greene?"
>
> There is an English Lute Society edition of Danyel's complete lute
works, and that one is printed as per the original and re-intabulated
(if that is the right term) by Martin Shepherd into standard tuning.
Works very well that way- but I haven't had the courage to re-tune my
archlute (no 9 or 10 course lutes in the house) to try the original.
The editor's opinion is that the actual pitches go 1/2 step lower than
the "sensible compromise" i.e., f# 1st and AA 9th.
>
> Dan
>
> On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:21 AM, Mathias RAP:sel wrote:
>
>> Dear Everybody,
>>
>> not sure if this has been discussed before, as the archives are
unavailable currently. In John Danyels 1606 publication, there is a
piece on the last pages (22-3) with a special lute tuning. It is a solo
piece (variations on Greensleeves), and Danyel gives a chart with the
intervals, but no pitches.
>>
>> Translated into pitch, the tuning would possibly be:
>>
>> 1. B4 - F#4 - D4 - A3 - D3 - C3 | A2 - G2 - C2
>> Or
>> 2. E4 - B3 - G3 - D3 - G2 - F2 | D2 - C2 - G1
>> Or
>> 3. D4 - A3 - F3 - C3 - F2 - Eb2 | C2 - Bb1 - F1
>>
>> The first line is based on the lowest bass string on lutes at the
time (C2). In that case, the 1st course would be higher (and thinner)
than gut strings can be made for a G-lute with VSL of about 58-63 cm.
>>
>> The 2nd and 3rd lines are based on the lowest bass strings for the
chitarrone or the archlute. In that case, the 1st course has the pitch
of a tenor lute. Played with the 1st course as B4, the variations on
Greensleeves would be in C-major, and played with the 1st course as E4,
the variations would be in F-major.
>>
>> Of course, one might argue that somewhere in the middle is a
sensible compromise, i. e. 1st course G4 with the 9th course Bb1. That
way, however, Danyel's Greensleeves would be in A-flat-major. A bit
awkward for 1606 IMO.
>>
>> My questions are:
>>
>> 1. Is there evidence of very small 9c lutes (about 50 cm VSL) in
Britain around 1600? (First line of tuning)
>>
>> 2. Is there evidence of theorboed 9c lutes (not to speak of Britain
around 1600)? (2nd and 3rd lines of tuning)
>>
>> Mathias
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
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