[LUTE] Re: Wikipedia

Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:34:34 -0700 

In that case: edit away!
More power to you. Wikipedia needs you!
RT

From: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>
Thanks for your kind words. Much of it well documented. Try checking RILM ot he British Library Catalogue. 

Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Turovsky" <[email protected]> 
To: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:32 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wikipedia
I know nothing about BG, and less about you, but if your data is well-documented 
to PUBLISHED (NOT self-published) material with page ##: is should be OK.
RT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]> 
To: "Roman Turovsky" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:25 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wikipedia
As far as Santiago de Murcia and the baroque guitar is concerned I am generally considered to be one of them (although perhaps not by you). 

Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Turovsky" <[email protected]> 
To: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Wikipedia



should be acceptable then.
RT

From: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>

What happens if you happen to be one of the  scholarly third parties?

Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Turovsky" <[email protected]> 
To: "lutenet" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:35 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wikipedia



Wikipedia has strict rules against Original Research,
all information must be reliably sourced to scholarly 3rd parties.
So in the contest beteen Grove and Monica the former would still trump 
the latter.
RT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]> 
To: "A. J. Ness" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:35 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Wikipedia



Dear Art
Yes - I just did. What a lot of meaningless jargon. Wikipedia is a mixed blessing but it does have one advantage - it can be updated very quickly.
The entry for Santiago de Murcia gives his correct biographical details but Grove On Line still has the largely fictional biography of him - in spite of the fact that I complained about when it was first written and more recently after Alejandro Vera had unearthed his baptismal and burial records. A lot of the other entries relating to the baroque guitar in Groves are also inaccurate but the current editorial staff couldn't care less. 

Moral of this tale - never believe what other people say....
I must plead guilty to occasionally amending Wiki entries myself when I have nothing better to do! 

Monica.
----- Original Message ----- From: "A. J. Ness" <[email protected]> 
To: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers



Dear Monica,
Take a look at the article "Pitch" in W'pedia. It's pure jargon. Sometimes these articles are written by persons without an understanding of the subject manner. So they emphasize (or try to emphasize) what they cannot understand, as here. And bibliographies are usually deficient of the basic 
sources, e.g., Ellis and Mendel.
A few years ago there was an article in the Boston Globe about two high school students (ca. 17 year olds) who (between the two of them) had written 1000 articles for the Wikipedia. That is an explanation for the poor quality of many articles. But looks good on a college application. (As 
does playing the lute.<g>)

Arthur.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]> 
To: "Mark Wheeler" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:42 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
Well - I would take anything Wikipedia said with a large pinch of salt. I have just finished reading Hywel Williams study of Charlemagne and the Carolingian Empire which has a couple of pages on the subject of spread of Roman chant northwards. He says nothing about the clergy being forced to 
use it on pain of death.
I can't quote the whole section in the book but needless to say it was much more complicated than that. Among other things chant as performed in Rome did not remain static. There were significant changes to it 
during the period in question.

What Williams concludes by saying is -
"A uniform chant remained the Carolingian goal and a New Hymnal was issued during the reign of Louis the Pious (Charlemagne's son). But 
Gregorian chant as it evolved during the next two centuries was a
synthesis of Carolingian, ancient Roman and the Gallican plainchant which 
had prevailed under the Merovingians".

Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Wheeler" <[email protected]> 
To: "Tony" <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:11 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
Ironically fitting for this thread, the domination of Gregorian Chant over other forms of chant came through the use of extremely draconian 
methods...
"Gregorian chant appeared in a remarkably uniform state across Europe within a short time. Charlemagne, once elevated to Holy Roman Emperor, aggressively spread Gregorian chant throughout his empire to consolidate 
religious and secular power, requiring the clergy to use the new
repertory on pain of death."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant

Mark




On Mar 14, 2012, at 12:01 AM, Tony wrote:



  Thanks Gary
I tried to find information about what the church prohibited in medieval and renaissance Europe( some of you here may have some useful links) While searching for the Council of Trent I came across this 
  list, a summary of approved  music
The Church's doctrine on liturgical music can be summarized in seven 
  points ....
1 Types of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the Mass and the Sacred Liturgy of the must be either Gregorian Chant, or must be similar to Gregorian Chant. The primary example of music similar to Gregorian Chant is Sacred Polyphony, exemplified by the compositions 
of
  Palestrina.
2 Characteristics of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the Mass must have "grandeur yet simplicity; solemnity and majesty," and must have "dignity," and "gravity," should be "exalted" and "sublime," should bring "splendor and devotion" to the liturgy, and must be 
  conducive to prayer and liturgical participation, rather than
distracting the listener from prayer. It must be music that befits the profound nature of the Mass, which is the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. 
As
Pope Paul VI put it: "The primary purpose of sacred music is to evoke God's majesty and to honor it. But at the same time music is meant to be a solemn affirmation of the most genuine nobility of the human 
  person, that of prayer."

  3 Types of Musical Instruments Appropriate for the Mass. The
instrument
that is most "directly" fitted for the Mass is the classical pipe 
  organ. Other instruments, however, can be adapted to the Mass,
  including wind instruments, and smaller bowed instruments.
4 Types of Music Prohibited in the Mass. All secular and entertainment styles of music are utterly prohibited in the Mass. The introduction 
of
inappropriate music into the liturgy is regarded as "deplorable 
  conduct."

  5 Types of Instruments Prohibited in the Mass. All "noisy or
frivolous"
  instruments are prohibited for use in the Mass.The specific
instruments
named by the Popes have included guitars, pianos, drums, cymbals, and tambourines. "Bands" also are prohibited, as are all automated forms 
of
  music (recordings, automatic instruments, etc).

  6 Adapting Musical Traditions of Indigenous Cultures, and
"Universality." The musical traditions of particular cultures can and should be incorporated into the Sacred Liturgy, but only in such a way that they will be recognized as sacred ("good" in the words of Pope 
St.
Pius X) by people of all cultures. That is, all such music must have 
  the characteristic of "universality."
7 Preserving the Church's Musical Tradition. The treasury of the Church's sacred music is to be carefully preserved, rather than 
  discarded
aEUR|written in 2002 ..... [1]http://www.matthewhoffman.net/music/ 

  I guess compiled by a traditionalist - I know people who go to
churches
in the UK and Latin America where these rules are vigorously flouted
And resumably the lute is a 'noisy' instrument associated with 
  thedreadful  frivolities of pianos and guitars
  Tony

  ---

  --

References

  1. http://www.matthewhoffman.net/music/


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