And thank you again David,
Indeed, as I pointed out earlier it is the precise plucking point which
is relevant. In particular if the player is plucking, say, up to the
rose then the geometry of the instrument will result in a smaller
course seperation than if they were plucking close to the bridge: -
again a matter of the player's own technique rather than a deficiency
in the instrument.
In short, before blaming an instrument's size and specification
the player should look to themselves first and ensure the problem
isn't with their own posture and technique.
Martyn
--- On Sat, 14/4/12, David Tayler <[email protected]> wrote:
From: David Tayler <[email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good
lute?
To: "lute" <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, 14 April, 2012, 22:30
The important number is not the bridge or nut, but the spacing at
the
plucking point, which is derived from the string length, and the
overall spacing plan, plus the thickness of the strings.
Unless you go "close parallel", which is more common on early
instruments, 5mm is going to wing up being just on the edge. BUT you
can of course widen it at the other end.
And there, it depends a lot on the circumference of your fourth
finger
of the left hand when stopping the string. That needs to feel "just
right" to execute fast trills.
dt
__________________________________________________________________
From: Anthony Hart <[1][email protected]>
To: lute <[2][email protected]>
Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 2:51:18 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good
lute?
whilst on the subject of lute set up, I have a question of the
action
of
the bass courses of a 14c Liuto attiorbato. I have found several
suggestions concerning the ideal height of the bass strings above
the
finger board.
1. The strings should be about 5mm at the lower nut.
2. The strings should be in the same plane as the stopped strings.
From observation from drawings:
1. A drawing of the 1639 Sellas instrument (upon which my instrument
is
based)by Robert Lundberg the top nut appears to be slightly lower
than
the
line of the finger board. Also the upper nut appears to have a
slight
curve, as with a violin bridge, making the lowest course slightly
lower
than the preceding ones.
2. A drawing of the Railich instrument shows the line of the bass
courses
higher than the stopped ones.
These observations are based on the thumbnail views from the
appropriate
websites so exact measurements not possible.
Any other ideas?
Many thanks
Anthony
> David,
> Clearly the overall size of an instrument and things like
string
spacing are relevant to the ease of playing. But if a player
struggles
> with a particular size and/or specification of lute, before
jumping
to
> erroneous conclusions it's important to see if the player's
posture
and
> hand position/technique are not the real culprits.
> Regarding the 'wrong' size instrument: a player may seem to
struggle
with a larger instrument than that they are used to simply because
they
> are holding it an unsuitable/inappropriate manner - rather that
their
arms/hands are intrinsically incapable of the stretch required. For
example, if a player holds a large lute instrument as a modern
'classical' guitar (ie cradled low down in the lap and at a
relatively
> low angle to the ground) they may find left arm stretch
difficulties
which can readily be overcome by adopting a posture with the
instrument
> resting on the right thigh (as often seen in early
representations).
This can result in the instrument now being held some 10/15cm to the
player's right and bringing the nut a similar distance closer to the
left hand and so stretches which had previously seemed difficult may
be
> more readily achieved. Holding a large instrument in a more
upright
position also helps since it better fits with the
> arm/body geometry and increases the effective stretch of the
left
arm.
> The end result of all this is to give up to 15cm extra left arm
stretch
> and thus increasing the effective left arm stretch from, say,
76cm
string length to around 90cm.
> Similarly, if a player is playing well up to the rose rather
than
close
> to the bridge, the natural tapering of string separation from
bridge
to
> nut will result in a small, but noticeable, reduction in string
separation at the actual plucking point which is not the fault of
the
string spacing at the bridge but of the player's own technique.
Finally, specifically with regard to the theorbo, as Lynda Sayce
points out ([1][1][3]http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm), if
a
theorbo player is trying to employ ordinary lute fingered chords,
rather than those appropriate to the theorbo, they may also
struggle.
> Martyn
> --- On Mon, 9/4/12, David Tayler <[2][4][email protected]>
wrote:
> From: David Tayler <[3][5][email protected]>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute?
> To: "lute" <[4][6][email protected]>
> Date: Monday, 9 April, 2012, 22:27
> Ninety percent of the lutes I see are set up wrong and are
also
the
> wrong size for the person playing. I doubt that this will
change
anytime soon: once someone buys the wrong size instrument, they
> either
> keep it or trade it in for another one that is the wrong
size.
So
I would rate size and setup as the number one issue, based on
my
> experience that the player will have to go through a very
long
retraining period
> after learning on a lute that is the wrong size. Why pedal
> backwards?
> Of the setup issues, the number one issue is the span and
spacing.
Without the right span and spacing, which reconciles two numbers,
> the
> size of the hand (and fingers) and the rules which govern the
span
> and
> spacing of strings. Without these two numbers in balance, it
is
impossible, or very difficult to make a good sound.
> When these numbers are in balance, it is easy to make a good
sound;
> in
> fact, it is difficult to make a bad sound. No one would wear
size
4
> or
> size 11 shoes if they are a size 9, and yet, that is
precisely
what
> happens. Sadly, people are rarely fitted to the lute, even
though
> the
> lute is from the age of "custom made". Equally sadly, most
people
do
> not understand the basic physics of twang, thwack and pluck,
which
involves some simple experiments with a special bridge and nut
that
> are
> universally adjustable. Generally speaking, and I mean VERY
> generally,
> the plucking-point spacing is wrong, that is, the place where
you
actually pluck the string, and it is almost always too narrow.
> However,
> it is the ratio of the bridge to nut, factoring the string
length,
> and
> figured at YOUR plucking point that gives numbers for the
"thou
> shalt
> not buzz" dimensions. Empirically, anyone can see that the
spacing
> is
> different at any point on the string.
> A player with years of experience can give you some advice,
after
watching you play, about the setup. You may have to compromise
> somewhat
> on the overall span, or use a sliding scale so that the
treble
has
> more
> room.
> After these two biggies, there is a seemingly endless list of
> features,
> all of which are important. And here you will need some
experience
> to
> guide you.
> However, I would add that most lutes made nowadays are not
copies
of
> originals. They are rescaled, resized, rebarred, rebridged,
reglued,
> revarnished.
> Available is everything: everything-except-original.
> Now, you may want that. Personally, I think everyone needs a
reality
> check instrument that is a copy of an original. Otherwise, it
is
> just a
> guitar, basically, with wonky pegs.
> Since you asked about sound in your list, it is no fun
playing a
monochromatic instrument of any kind, but that is just a personal
preference. I would say most lutes made today lean towards
monochromatic.
> Main thing is to make a good sound. If you aren't making a
beautiful
> sound, it isn't you: your lute is set up wrong, is the wrong
size,
> or
> both.
> Lute players may think that their feet are the wrong size,
but
when
> you
> think about it, this cannot be the case. Everyone is
different,
and
> the
> instrument must fit.
> My teacher told me that you don't choose a lute, it chooses
you.
> Maybe
> that is true.
> dt
>
__________________________________________________________________
> From: William Samson <[2][5][7][email protected]>
> To: Lute List <[3][6][8][email protected]>
> Sent: Sat, April 7, 2012 6:25:47 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] What makes a good lute?
> I haven't really got much to add to the subject line. I've
been
chatting with Rob about this and various points have emerged
I'd
> be
> interested in hearing what priorities you might put on the
various
> characteristics of a lute in deciding if it's 'good' or
otherwise.
> The kinds of things that have come up are (in no particular
> order):
> * playability (action, string spacing etc)
> * sound (which I can't easily define)
> * authenticity of design/construction
> * materials used
> * quality of craftsmanship
> * reputation of maker
> Of course these are rather broad headings and might easily
be
> refined,
> clarified or broken down.
> Thoughts, please?
> Bill
> --
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
[1][4][7][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
> References
> 1.
[5][8][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
> References
> 1. [9][11]http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm
> 2.
[10][12]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsamson@yaho
o.co.uk
> 3.
[11][13]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
th.edu
4. [12][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 5.
[13][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
__________________________________________________________________
Anthony
Hart MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
Musicologist and Independent Researcher
Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552.
e-mail: [14][16][email protected];
web: www.monsignor-reggio.com
--
References
1. [17]http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm
2. mailto:[18][email protected]
3. mailto:[19][email protected]
4. mailto:[20][email protected]
5. mailto:[21][email protected]
6. mailto:[22][email protected]
7. [23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
8. [24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
9. [25]http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm
10.
[26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
11.
[27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
12. [28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
13. [29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
14. mailto:[30][email protected]
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
3. http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm
12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
17. http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm
18. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
20. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
21. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
22. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
25. http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm
26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
30. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
