meant there ARE suff. etc.
RT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[email protected]>
To: "Jarosław Lipski" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:19 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
JSB never played trumpet either, but he wrote for it competently.
There is sufficient grounds to assume he would have approached lute
with equal consideration he afforded any other instrument he wrote for,
given his diligence and meticulousness.
The lute is the only instrument he showed no understanding of -
because he never wrote for it.
RT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jarosław Lipski" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 5:13 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Roman,
Yes , no one questions that. Lute Suites are not well written for lute,
for sure. Weather they are playable or not can be discussed. However we
are not talking about this. The question is if Bach intended them to be
performed on a lute. I can tell you something from my own experience.
Many years ago when I studied in London there was a Polish composer who
wanted to write a guitar piece which was commissioned for a special
occasion. Because I was asked to perform it he consulted me several times
on playability of some passages. In spite he was obviously aware of the
range of classical guitar, the way he structured his music was very
unintuitive. If he hadn't had a guitarist to consult during a
compositional process probably he would have written something unplayable
for someone who would try to take the score literally. Now, could you
imagine that Bach being probably one of the most prolific composer in
history of music, but being mostly as we say nowadays a keyboard player !
would have time to study possibilities of an instrument that he did not
play himself? Possibly he knew the range of this instrument and how it
sounds, but the idea that he would have cared about every note to be
played comfortably on a lute seems to me not tenable. In fact it is quite
possible that being fond of lute's sound (as we know from some writings
and his love for lute-harpsichord and clavichord) and being asked by Mr
Schouster he made an arrangement of his work with a real intention of
editing it for lute players.
Anyway, it's just a speculation, but it shows that one can interpret the
same data in many different ways. Until more evidence is found it is
better to refrain from making up new theories, I suppose.
All best
JL
isticWiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 30 kwi 2012, o godz.
04:42:
Jarek,
I thinks the available evidence pretty much points where Clive thinks it
does, and I am inclined to agree with him, notwithstanding Vasily
Antipov,
an excellent Russian player who actually can perform "Lute Suites" as
written (he knows no technical difficulties).
The "Lute Suites" are simply not performable by an average professional
player (unlike the rest of JSB's works), and that is the ultimate
giveaway
(besides being out of lutenistic character).
RT
From: "Jarosław Lipski" <[email protected]>
Roman,
I do not share your dislike for musicology. It pays really big service
to all of us I suppose. It has its rules and trespassing them creates
the effect you are talking about. I am just saying that the available
evidence on so called Lute Suites does not entitle us to make very
definite statements that Bach never ever wrote anything with a lute in
mind apart from 2 small movements in his Passions. It would be not too
difficult to create a contradictory theory, but this kind of speculation
seems to be rather a waste of time.
JL
Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz.
23:01:
a geetar then.
Phrases like "there is some likelihood that item X might very well
could have been item Y"
may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our
"Lute Suites".
RT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarosław Lipski"
<[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
but in this case a spade is not a spade :)
JL
Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz.
22:32:
Yes,
but -
sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo,
and just call a spade a spade.
RT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarosław Lipski"
<[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Eugene,
Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write any
music specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct
me if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final
argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and
expressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter.
I greatly recommend David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as
mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning this
subject in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately
no simple answers so far, I am afraid.
However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute
suites if we understand them the same way that some guitarists used
to believe in past, but then the question is what guitarist and how
can we judge someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare
facts letting people decide what they can make of it, IMHO.
My 2 cents
Best regards
Jaroslaw
Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz.
22:01:
I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the
little article discussed here did make any such definitive
statements. I think it did a fair job of presenting evidence with
relative objectivity.
Eugene
________________________________________
From: [email protected] [[email protected]] on
behalf of Jarosław Lipski [[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone
makes very definite statements like- the evidence would be that
Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute
- or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit
down
I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we
need more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is
true. Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of
speculation on lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments
from available scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories,
unless the reason for this was to stir a discussion.
jl
WiadomoϾ napisana przez [email protected] w dniu 26 kwi
2012, o godz. 20:02:
... It's obviously a bit of
popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that
stuff
tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
literature ever will. > Eugene
I agree.
The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is
getting
from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for
20 - 30
years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the
rest of the
music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site"
(nose upturned?)
will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a
good thing,
bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines.
Something
I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for
example,
keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach
piece
was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The
same is
true for violin, etc.
"Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think
that the more
people write about these things, the better. And if you have
pertinent info that
this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know
about it?
Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the
world.
And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider
audience is going
to be good for lutes and lutenists.
I'll look forward to future responses.
Tom
However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary
source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a
bit of
popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that
stuff
tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
literature ever will.
Eugene
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM
Cc:
[email protected] Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s
Lute
Suites: This Myth is Busted
Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld
<[email protected]>:
The article was aimed at the guitar crowd,
And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A
real
contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references
here,
no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen,
Hofmann,
Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence.
Regards
Stephan
still clinging to illusions
of lute. It's tough letting go.
But he put it all together very nicely, I thought.
On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:
While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly
new
here. For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the
sources of Bach's original "lute" music in the liner notes he
drafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago.
He
also stated their evident non-lute provenance. I have heard
Paul
O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something
like "Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute." Etc. I suspect
that anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bach
knowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure to
some reference of the source material either really, really
wants
to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of
modern
classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived
ancestor of his/her own instrument.
Best,
Eugene
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, April 25,
2012 11:58 AM To: [email protected]; Luca Manassero
Subject:
[LUTE] [LUTE] Bach´s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
A very interesting article. I can't wait to see the responses
from
the rest of the list! I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an
arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007.
Very
nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning!
Tom
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