There was a spell in the 70s when WRC tops were very popular in the UK. This was largely down to the luthier Philip Macleod-Coupe, who built lutes in all sizes for Tony Rooley and Jim Tyler's "Consort of Musick". These WRC-topped lutes eventually fell out of favour when makers decided that 'Swiss pine' (picea abies/excelsa) was the 'authentic' thing to use and customers demanded it.
Looking at it objectively, these lutes were wonderful to play - very responsive and with a big sound. I built a half dozen or so myself and enjoyed playing them. On the other hand, it's not nice to have other makers/musicians sneering "are you still using these cedar tops?". There are a couple of things to remember if you are thinking of using WRC - First of all, it is easily dented and needs to be taken care of. The second thing is that it must be left a good bit thicker than a Swiss Pine top. Swiss Pine typically has a specific gravity of 0.47 against WRC's 0.37 so a cedar top should be about 25% thicker than the corresponding Swiss Pine top. I found that thin (1.5mm) WRC tops quickly cracked up and that 2mm or even more worked well. Jim Tyler's wonderful album "Music for Merchants and Monarchs" was played on a WRC-topped archlute. I don't remember who the maker was, but the sound Jim drew from it was breathtaking. Bill From: Tim Motz <[email protected]> To: Mark Day <[email protected]> Cc: James Jackson <[email protected]>; "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, 18 May 2012, 2:36 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Englemann Spruce Yes, two different trees. Red cedar will be much softer. My music teacher (no longer with us, unfortunately) had a lute built by Larry Lundy in the 70s that had a red cedar top and I loved the sound of it. I have a red cedar soundboard that I'm planning to put on a lute to try and duplicate that sound. Northern Tonewoods harvests dead standing red spruce in Canada under a license from the Canadian government. I emailed Dan Larson when I got the idea of using red spruce and he was encouraging. He warned about difficulties in carving the rose because the wood is stiffer than other spruces, but my roses are pretty simple and I didn't notice any particular problems. I just need to finish the lute so I can hear what it sounds like. I should say that I've built two lutes using Englemann spruce and I like that too. Tim Sent from my iPad On May 17, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Mark Day <[1][email protected]> wrote: > Red cedar and red Spruce are two different trees. Both are native to > North America. red spruce (picea rubens) is also known by Adirondack > spruce and comes from, you guessed it; the Eastern part of North > America along the Adirondack range. Western red cedar (Thuja plicata) > is native to the Pacific Northwest. > Adirondack or red spruce is famed for pre-war Martin guitars. It is > supposed to exhibit properties close to that of European spruces which > is not surprising since at one time the western shore of Europe and the > eastern shore of North America where probably one. I don't know of > anyone who has made the connection and tried it for a lute yet, but > it's on my bucket list of things to do. It is very expensive and > difficult to get wide pieces because it was indiscriminately logged out > by our thoughtful ancestors, but you can still get it. > Western red cedar is offered as an option by Dan Larson and Mel Wong > told me one of the nicest sounding lutes he built had a WRC top, and I > re-topped my cheap Pakistani-built lute with a WRC top and it sounds > beautiful. > My first "from scratch" build was a vihuela with an Engleman spruce > top. I think it also sounds very nice despite my inexperience in > luthiery. > Cheers, > Mark > > On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 7:52 PM, James Jackson > <[1][2][email protected]> wrote: > > Shouldn't red spruce be synonymous with red cedar? > I've heard of cedar topped lutes - from what I understand (And I > really > don't understand much yet!), cedar can work well on smaller lutes, > A, > B, C and D ren lutes. > Unless I'm getting this wrong and red spruce IS different? > My Englemann soundboard arrived. It's really an excellent piece of > timber. No run out, or short grain, amazing tap tone, feels lovely > and > dry crispy under thumb, and the grain is VERY fine in the area > where > the rose is to be cut, which is a plus! > It's actually the nicest soundboard I've bought yet...I've bought > several middle grade Alpine spruce boards, non of them have the > tap > tone or the lack of short grain this one has. I'm very happy! > On 17 May 2012 22:57, Tim@Buckeye > <[1][2][3][email protected]> > > wrote: > James, > To further confuse the issue, Northern Tonewoods offers Red Spruce > soundboards. > > [2][3][4]http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm > > I'm in the middle of building an A lute with one of their > soundboards. Tap tone is very clear and bright. I don't know how > the > lute will sound, but it should be pretty bright. > Tim > Sent from my iPhone > On May 17, 2012, at 8:06 AM, James Jackson > > <[3][4][5][email protected]> wrote: >> Thanks for your advice, >> >> I've decided to go for Englemann. I'm going for grade 7 (Second > down >> from highest on their grade) which the timber supplier describes > as >> "Near perfection - very slow growth, the widest >> growth ring approximately 2mm within the template area. >> Very limited acceptance of colour variation, otherwise same as >> grade 8. Best possible quartering and >> the minimum possible run-out (short grain). The wood will >> be stiff with a high pitched tap tone." >> So hopefully, I should be in for a good soundboard!! >> James. > >> On 16 May 2012 13:35, Louis Aull <[1][4][5][6][email protected]> > wrote: >> >> James, >> The high grade Englemann I have used produces a very warm > full >> sound. >> It is also by far the best looking wood. It has to be about > 20% >> thicker >> than Alpine for the same strength. I have not worked with > Alpine >> because the few pieces I have purchased (top grade) were of > poor >> quality by comparison. I like to use Sitka spruce on ren > lutes > for >> it's >> brightness. >> Now some words of caution: the soft part of the wood is very > soft >> and >> will pull out with tape. Chip carving on Englemann is > extremely >> difficult due to that softness. It would rather tear than > cut. >> Other >> rosette carving produces a lot of fuzz and is difficult. I > don't >> bother with the chip carving and focus on perfecting the > rosette. >> The >> only tape I have found that will not pull the soft wood out > is >> drafting >> tape, used and removed with great caution. I usually leave a > few >> tenths >> of mm around the edges for the final sanding to get the > divots > in >> the >> soft wood flat again. It soaks up dirt, stain, and varnish > like > a >> sponge so plan on being more cleanly. That same sponge effect >> makes it >> glue better. Anyone who plays one of my Englemann lutes wears > a >> pinky >> protector or does not touch the top. (Including Hoppy Smith) >> Is it worth it? To me, no doubt. After my first Englemann > top, > I >> wouldn't play the others. I have since replaced all the other >> tops. >> Louis Aull >> -- >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> > [2][5][6][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:[6][7][8][email protected] >> 2. > [7][8][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > -- > References > 1. mailto:[9][10][email protected] > 2. [10][11]http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm > 3. mailto:[11][12][email protected] > 4. mailto:[12][13][email protected] > 5. [13][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 6. mailto:[14][15][email protected] > 7. [15][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > Mark Day > [16][17]http://neowalla.smugmug.com/ > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[18][email protected] > 2. mailto:[19][email protected] > 3. [20]http://www.hvgb.net/%7Etonewood/acousticguitar.htm > 4. mailto:[21][email protected] > 5. mailto:[22][email protected] > 6. [23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 7. mailto:[24][email protected] > 8. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 9. mailto:[26][email protected] > 10. [27]http://www.hvgb.net/%7Etonewood/acousticguitar.htm > 11. mailto:[28][email protected] > 12. mailto:[29][email protected] > 13. [30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 14. mailto:[31][email protected] > 15. [32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 16. [33]http://neowalla.smugmug.com/ > -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. mailto:[email protected] 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:[email protected] 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. mailto:[email protected] 11. http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm 12. mailto:[email protected] 13. mailto:[email protected] 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 15. mailto:[email protected] 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. http://neowalla.smugmug.com/ 18. mailto:[email protected] 19. mailto:[email protected] 20. http://www.hvgb.net/%7Etonewood/acousticguitar.htm 21. mailto:[email protected] 22. mailto:[email protected] 23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 24. mailto:[email protected] 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 26. mailto:[email protected] 27. http://www.hvgb.net/%7Etonewood/acousticguitar.htm 28. mailto:[email protected] 29. mailto:[email protected] 30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 31. mailto:[email protected] 32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 33. http://neowalla.smugmug.com/
