Thanks, Alain, for such a thoughtful and informative response. You've made a good case but I think I'm sticking to my idea that the Marsh dump is in need of reconstruction. While it's a obsolete term, I think the definition of 'dump' is not so removed from understanding, a once common term gone out of fashion, rather like 'maggot'. John Fowles used the term in his historical novel, A Maggot, and defined it as meaning a "whim, quirk, obsession, or even a snatch of music." And of course there are the musical titles from 17th and 18th century sources, "Mr. Beveridge's Maggot," "Mr. Isaac's Maggot," and "Jack's Maggot" The OED defines dump as follows: === 1. A fit of abstraction or musing, a reverie; a dazed or puzzled state, a maze; perplexity, amazement; absence of mind; 2. A fit of melancholy or depression, Heaviness of mind, dejection, low spirits, and 3. A mournful or plaintive melody or song; also, by extension, a tune in general; sometimes app. used for a kind of dance. === While your intriguing reference to the Welsh harp tradition is new to me, I think the oblique reference in OED, both to the pensive quality and to the dance form rather bear out my idea that a wistful interpretation with a regularity of pulse is not out of the question. As for the missing music and whether it is a mistake or a 'moment', I compare such pieces as Dowland's 'La mia Barbara' pavan in the Schele ms. While the piece has a bit more harmonic interest than the tonic-dominant ground of our dump in question, there is an obvious break in the C-prime section that would just sound silly were it left unresolved. But isn't this the same situation? Dare we reconstruct it? Or should we play it as it stands because that's how it appears in the manuscript? When is it OK to reconstruct and when is it not? And, not to put you on the spot since these are not your words, I have to say, I just don't buy the CD notes that refer to the "sprightly rhythms and playful arpeggiated figures" characteristic of the dump. That is pure conjecture based on an opinion and on interpretive decisions, and indefensible as the final word on the matter. In fact, there is no final word on the matter, and I hope we will all continue to form our own personal interpretations. Thanks again, Alain, and it's good to see you posting here again. Best wishes, RA > Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 13:18:34 -0700 > To: [email protected] > CC: [email protected] > From: [email protected] > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Philip or Arthur's Dump > > Hi Ron, > Thanks this detailed and interesting information that lead me to dig > out my CD copy of The royal lewters that has Paul O'Dette's > interpretation of it and follow the recording with the facsimile. > Paul's interpretation is note for note that of the facsimile including > the rhythmic break. I do not mean this to be an absolute statement of > truth or a kind of "gotcha" - although Paul is an extremely careful and > intelligent interpreter as we all know. He has an interesting paragraph > on the dump in the liner notes: "dumps were one of the favorite > vehicles for Tudor and Elizabethan lewters to demonstrate their > improvisational genius, since the simplicity of the bass line provided > maximum scope for harmonic and rhythmic invention, including the > addition of "blue notes", cross-relations, meter changes, etc. Dumps > were often though not always laments [...] but they could be merry as > well. Philip's dump fits into the latter category with its sprightly > rhythms and playful arpeggiated figures." > This could only mean that my understanding of the piece (one of my > favorites) is heavily tainted by that particular interpretation by POD, > hence my comment on the un-dolefulness of the piece. Now that I have > quoted the authorities, let me mention my own theory, or given the lack > of historical evidence and lack of knowledge on my part, my hunch that > dumps were not so much a genre as they were a technique, namely a > repetitive, alternative bass line played by the thumb similar to modern > finger picking on the guitar, inherited and imitating the technique of > Welsh and Irish harp players. It is not hard to imagine on the harp a > bass-line that involves an alternate movement of the thumb and index, > while the right hand is free to improvise its own intricate patterns. > My evidence for this is little: memory of the dumps seems to me to have > survived longer in Ireland than elsewhere perhaps - they are mentioned > in an 18th century book on the music of Ireland - in a somewhat > satirical context. I believe it was also mentioned in connection with > the picking of the bodies on the battlefield but I cannot find the > source for this right now. Another piece of shaky evidence is the > resemblance between the lute dumps and the reconstruction of a piece > from the Robert ap Huw manuscript, a unique book of music for harp > written in a tablature system that is still not completely understood. > Written at the beginning of 17th century, the book is believed to > contain much older music going back perhaps to the 12th century. There > is an online facsimile at > [1]http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ap_huw/facsimile/. I could of course > add in support of my view the famous piece by Mudarra in imitation of > the harp: "Fantasia X que contrahaze la harpa en la manera de Ludovico" > published in Spain in 1546, but that only buttresses the idea that some > lutenists were keen on imitating the style and technique of other > instruments among which the harp. Ludovico apparently did not use the > same kind of bass drone we find in English dumps. > Final remarks: in our efforts to revive the music of the past we > are heavily dependent on surviving documents - and such efforts were > already made in the early 17th century, with the ap Huw MS or in the > works of Thomas Ravenscroft for instance. But what about those missing > bits that were not at some time recorded and published in ways we can > access and understand them? This seems to me to have been the case with > music for the harp and it does seem to have been a clear political > choice rather than just an oversight. Queen Elizabeth for instance > issued a proclamation against travelling musicians, mentioning > specifically the Welsh harp players as being among the most nefarious > and dangerous of the breed. The falling out of fashion of the dump, > certainly in courtly circles at the end of the 16th century, its > reduction to a stereotype - the doleful dump - with all its sad > connotations and alliteration, may not be totally accidental. It is not > impossible that politics - late 16th century politics - is still > tainting our esthetic appreciation of a certain class of pieces of > music today. I tried to highlight all the uncertainties, but I am sure > there is a nice topic for enquiry here for someone who has more time > and knowledge than I. Well, as sure as I can be. In the meantime I am > happy to have had this discussion that revived my interest in the Marsh > lute book, certainly a very special collection of music, with a high > concentration of lute duets - many by John Johnson - dumps, and even > some da Milano and de Rippe stuff in it. > Cheers and happy playing, > Alain > PS: If the piece was a passomezzo, I would agree 100% with Ron that > some music is missing in that particular spot. But it is not a dance, > but a virtuoso solo piece. > On 6/11/2012 4:15 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > Hello Alain: > While many interpretive approaches are perfectly valid, the 'Dump' > seems to have filtered into our collective lute-playing consciousness > via certain recordings by certain prolific lutenists. I'll name names > here because it's both entertaining and worth the trouble to step back > and look at extremes of recorded interpretation and they may have > affected our own ideas. > Paul O'Dette recorded the piece as 'Dump philli (Philip's Dump), Philip > van Wilder? (d. 1557)' on Electra/Nonesuch LP 9 79123-1, recorded 1985, > timing 3:58. Christopher Wilson recorded the piece as Arthur's Dompe - > Philip van Wilder (c. 1500 - 1553) on the 1987 LP, CRD 1148, timing > 6:12. Differences abound. The interpretations range from O'Dette's > forward-leaning pulse that pushes the piece ahead whether it wants to > or no. Wilson takes his time, favoring the center of each and every > note to the point that you know its life story before it's finally gone > away. Extreme ends of the spectrum in attribution, pacing, style and > interpretation: One is almost gleeful and the other quite doleful. But > both players make an event of the missing music, which they omit simply > because it wasn't there in the score. > The best information available today points to the definition of 'dump' > as a reverie of sorts, which doesn't necessarily preclude a little > faster interpretation but it's probably not meant to be aggressive. > However, I tend to agree with John Ward's reckoning in Music for > Elizabethan Lutes. 2 vols., Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1992, Volume one, > page 4, that 1) the piece is probably not to do with Philip van Wilder, > and 2) the missing music is a copyists' mistake, and the ground is > meant to have a more formal proportion. In the Elizabethan world, > proportion was important, which is a little difficult for our modern > minds to grasp. We seem to like things that are different and kicky. > But while you could likely find some examples of irregular grounds > (French baroque chaconnes, for example) a ground is a ground because > it's predictable. > I think the missing music is a mistake in copying and prefer a pulse > and tempo that translates as wistful, or perhaps nostalgic, but not > interminable. > RA > > Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 23:53:08 -0700 > > To: [2][email protected] > > CC: [3][email protected] > > From: [4][email protected] > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Philip or Arthur's Dump > > > > Hi Ed, > > I checked the facsimile of the Marsh lute book and the break in the > > pattern is definitely there -- I tend to agree with the "Maybe it is > not > > a mistake" theory. It could be an intentional echo effect - the > melodic > > pattern of the second half of the bar is repeated a fourth up in the > > first half of the following bar. It might be intended to wake up the > > audience in a fairly long and repetitive piece and as you indicate > > prepare them for the final recap of the theme. Maybe Philip Glass > could > > help here? It is worth noting that the piece appears twice in the > book, > > the first time left obviously unfinished with a page and a half left > > blank immediately following, i.e. enough space to finish the > > transcription later. The scribe however finally recopied the piece at > > the very end of the book from the beginning all over again. There are > no > > scratches or corrections of any kind in the second version. > > Another interesting aspect of this piece: it is not doleful. > > Alain > > > > > > On 6/9/2012 1:04 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote: > > > I got a modern printout recently of Philip or Arthur's Dump - from > Marsh, I believe. About 16 m. before the end there appears to be a > missing measure or three. That is, the alternating C-G pattern breaks > and there are two measures based on G. > > > I also saw mention on the lute society site catalog of a duet > version. Is this the same version as Marsh? I thought I had Marsh, but > I don't, I think I mixed it up with Mynshall. > > > I wonder if the 'missing' measure was a mistake and is in Marsh or > a concordance, or perhaps someone famous has reconstructed it. > > > Maybe it is not a mistake? Magnus Andersson certainly plays it > convincingly: > > > [5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVuhbBhYCl0 > > > If I were the composer, I would have put that two bars of G bit > right before the 'recap', where he brings back the opening theme at the > end. > > > TIA > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ap_huw/facsimile/ > 2. mailto:[email protected] > 3. mailto:[email protected] > 4. mailto:[email protected] > 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVuhbBhYCl0 > 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
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