Thank you Martyn, Sorry, I've pushed the button too early by mistake. No, I am sorry, unfortunately it is not known to me, but I can't see the reason for which she would take for a portrait an instrument that she didn't play instead of an instrument that she did.
Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 18:46: > Thank you Jaroslaw, > > You write 'There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied > Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.' - is there any record > of what instrument(s) Eleonore actually played at these little concerts? > > Martyn > > > > --- On Fri, 20/7/12, Jaros³aw Lipski <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Jaros³aw Lipski <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> > Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 17:35 > > Just another thought. > Eleonore married Detrich von Keyserling who was a very close friend of > Frederick II. In 1744 she gave birth to her daughter Adelaide. Frederick > decided to be Adelaide's godfather and during the baptism ceremony he was > keeping the child in his arms. Soon Keyserlings were moved to Schloss > Schonhausen according to Frederick's will. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schönhausen_Palace > This was the place were Frederick's wife Elisabeth Christine of > Brunswick-Bevern resided, as a result of Frederick's animosity towards her > (he couldn't accept her in Potsdam). There is a strong evidence that Eleonore > very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis. > If this information is correct it becomes apparent the the instrument on > Eleonore's portrait is not a stage prop. If she was to accompany the Queen, > and I believe this is what must have been the case (I couldn't imagine the > Queen accompanying Eleonore) it is very possible that Eleonore decided to > transfer her lute into a continuo instrument. In short, what we can observe > on the painting must have been her endeavors to please the Queen. If she was > successful is another matter. > > Jaroslaw > > > Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24: > > > > > Thanks for this Jaroslaw, > > > > You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a > > technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him. > > > > But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things > > about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical > > that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the > > first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body > > join even though the third nut grooves are used. > > > > Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic > > pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of > > stage prop. > > > > Martyn > > --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > From: JarosAA'aw Lipski <[email protected]> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52 > > > > Dear Martyn, > > It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a > > painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We > > can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into > > direct conclusions is another matter. > > First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy > > of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of > > Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his > > other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is > > incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into > > consideration that the texture he used, especially to paint a > > background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was > > not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one > > of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different > > means of showing reality. He was a fine portraitist and had very good > > powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to > > paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, > > not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of > > centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments). > > However what is of some interest to me i! > > s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing > > chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and > > a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is > > difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over > > the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said > > before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in > > some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about > > asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see where > > exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If > > you judge it by the position of the last bass string it can be > > misleading as the Lady could have moved all courses towards treble > > side. Whether she played this instrument or not is not really important > > here. > > Then, what kind of instrument is this? My guess is that it could have > > been an example of a German D-minor theorbo (the one that Weiss talked > > about) rebuild from a normal 13 course lute. Why? > > 1/ The time and place is correct - the portrait was painted in Berlin > > in 1745 (some more info on Eleonore > > [1]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben ). > > 2/ We can't see the whole instrument, but it's clear that diapasons are > > not attached in the 1st pegbox, so there must be another one somewhere > > up there. Conclusion - the instrument has a long neck and 2 pegboxes. > > Because of the time and place it is doubtful if it could be an > > archlute. Then a swan neck lute or theorbo is possible. > > 3/ The Lady took off trebles and the only reason for doing so could be > > a need of transforming the lute into continuo instrument. > > 4/ The octave stringing from the 3rd course down only confirm this > > supposition. > > 5/ The number of fingerboard frets can suggest that proportions of the > > body to neck could have been changed in favor of the neck. It is > > possible that the real proportions of this lute were not portrayed > > correctly intentionally because of the constraints caused by the > > composition of this painting. Lady's figure is centrally placed like an > > axis of the picture, so it is possible that Pesne wanted to fit the 1st > > pegbox within view. This in turn may suggest that it could be more > > theorbo-like. > > All in all it is a very interesting stringing idea - to use one D-minor > > instrument alternatively for continuo or solo just by rearranging a > > stringing. Obviously I can be totally wrong, but it gives me an idea > > though. > > All the best > > Jaroslaw > > WiadomoAA>Ae/= napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o > > godz. 09:07: > >> > >> Dear Jaroslaw, > >> > >> It may be some sort of sport (in a modern biological sense), but I > >> suspect either the painter didn't quite get it right - see how the > >> first string is fastened not to the to the body of the bridge but > > to > >> the treble point! - or the neck is indeed incorrectly set (maybe in > >> converting from an instrument with fewer courses the neck was not > >> canted over to ensure the bridge remained central....... > >> > >> Do we know if she actually played the lute or is this just an > > example > >> of an elegant pose adopted simply for pictorial delight? > >> > >> Martyn > >> --- On Thu, 19/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski <[2][email protected]> > > wrote: > >> > >> From: JarosAA'aw Lipski <[3][email protected]> > >> Subject: [LUTE] Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten > >> To: [4][email protected] > >> Date: Thursday, 19 July, 2012, 20:45 > >> > >> here is a link if interested > >> [1][5]http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portra > > it-of-e > >> leonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau- > > von- > >> keyserlingk.jpg > >> JL > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> -- > >> > >> References > >> > >> 1. > > [7]http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-e > > leonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von- > > keyserlingk.jpg > >> 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben > > 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 5. http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-e > > 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 7. > > http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-eleonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von-keyserlingk.jpg > > 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > --
