What are your 'uncategorizable instruments' ? With enough categories anything can be classified - the task is to develop a system which allows a degree of rational consolidation and so allow some general conclusions to be drawn.
As already said, the major physical difference, and one immediately obvious to all, is between the waisted guitar family and the bowl lute family. The early lute shaped 'kitharra' is thus more related to the lute family than the waisted guitar family - tho', of course, both familes may have had instruments strummed as well as plucked (this might be what led Meucci astray). And so we come full circle, again....... And of course we haven't even looked at what Piccinnini tells us of the origin of the chitarrone (in short, a restrung bass lute): it would indeed be very strange if he thought he could get away with a downright lie since others would have still been around to point out his error. MH --- On Thu, 18/10/12, Roman Turovsky <[email protected]> wrote: From: Roman Turovsky <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> Cc: "WALSH STUART" <[email protected]>, "Lutelist" <[email protected]> Date: Thursday, 18 October, 2012, 12:52 So we have some uncategorizable instruments. The ultimate point is that Meucci makes a lot more sense than the rest of them/us. RT On 10/18/2012 3:40 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Dear Stuart, > > I'd argue that many of these are 'lutes', such as mandores, some > gitterns, theorbos, chitarroni, archlutes, mandoras/gallichons, > colasciones, mandolins/mandolas, etc. In short, instruments developed > directly from the same general platonic 'lute' form. > > The big difference, and obvious to all, is between the waisted guitar > family and the lute family. And so we come full circle..... > Martyn > --- On Wed, 17/10/12, WALSH STUART <[1][email protected]> wrote: > > From: WALSH STUART <[2][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone > To: "Monica Hall" <[3][email protected]> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[4][email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 21:38 > > mandolins in many different forms, mandores, gitterns, some English > guitars, mandora/gallichons, colascione, some 18th century French > cistres, (further afield: things like Ukrainian torban, lute shaped > hurdy-gurdies) > Stuart > On 17 October 2012 21:05, Monica Hall <[1][1][5][email protected]> > wrote: > Such as ? ............. > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: [2]WALSH STUART > To: [3]Monica Hall > Cc: [4]Lutelist > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone > Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies... > Stuart > On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall <[5][2][6][email protected]> > wrote: > Well - what is the difference between a lute and a > gittern/mandore. > When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a > large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped > body. It > depends what you mean by separate traditions....... > Monica...getting more confused by the minute. > Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement > with > Meucci? > Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from > you. As > I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a > large > lute. The lute has its own, separate, traditions. The > chitarrone > (he > is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or > gittern/mandore). > Stuart > On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi > <[1][6][3][7][email protected]> > wrote: > If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about > Chitarrone here: > [2][7][4][8]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf > The first chapter is about ethimology. > Diego > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [3][8][5][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. mailto:[9][6][10][email protected] > 2. [10][7][11]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf > 3. [11][8][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. mailto:[9][13][email protected] > 2. mailto:[10][14][email protected] > 3. mailto:[11][15][email protected] > 4. mailto:[12][16][email protected] > 5. mailto:[13][17][email protected] > 6. mailto:[14][18][email protected] > 7. [15][19]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf > 8. [16][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 9. mailto:[17][21][email protected] > 10. [18][22]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf > 11. [19][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [24]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 2. [25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 3. [26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 4. [27]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf > 5. [28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 6. [29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 7. [30]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf > 8. [31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 9. [32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 10. [33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 11. [34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 12. [35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 13. [36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 14. [37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 15. [38]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf > 16. [39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 17. [40]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 18. [41]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf > 19. [42]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 18. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 19. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf 20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 21. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 22. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf 23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 27. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf 28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 30. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf 31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 32. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 33. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 34. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 35. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 36. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 37. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 38. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf 39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 40. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 41. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf 42. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
