Hello Monica, Stuart relates to some of the written sources in 16th century France - inventories of builders in Paris made when they died. Some of these inventories try to distinguish between "guiterne" and "guitarne" (spelling variations on these exist of course, losing the "n" for example). You can't just prove that the "guiterne" was the lute-like and "guitarne" the figure-8 shaped instrument or the other way around, but some of the source do add a but of context like "viel lucz a guitarne" (old lute-like gitterns). Perhaps confusingly - and I believe Stuart seems to be fallen a victim - I found more cases where "lute" context seemed to be related the spelling with an "a". It is confusing stuff, and I doubt if we will be able to get any ground-braking theories from the little facts at hand, but some definite things that can be concluded: - inventories from builders in Paris seemed to contains instruments that required a differentiation between a guiterne and guitarne - some of these instruments get some context that point towards the lute, most logically then pointing to the old lute-like gittern (the word "old" even showes up sometimes) I hope this clears things up a bit? Kind regards, Pieter _______________________________________________________________________
Van: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]> Verzonden: vrijdag 25 januari 2013 21:36 Aan: "WALSH STUART" <[email protected]> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: Bransle Simple for guitarne et guiterne (Gervaise 1557) I am getting more confused as the day wears on.... Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "WALSH STUART" <[email protected]> To: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 7:50 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bransle Simple for guitarne et guiterne (Gervaise 1557) > On 25/01/2013 17:23, Monica Hall wrote: >> Why is it called a guitarne? >> >> Monica >> > > > Monica > > I was being slightly mischievous. But Pieter wrote in a recent email: > > "If the source is French and from after 1540, be careful as it might be > either for "guitar" or "gittern". Interestingly enough, some inventories > of instrument makers like the Denis builders seem to have tried to make a > distinction between a "guitarne" and a "guiterne" (where the guiterne has > "fondz de lut" or a lute back). I therefore would place it that a source > putting an "a" guitar(n)e in France in the second half of the > 16th century is not referring to the lute-like instrument." > > So if Pieter knows what he is talking about, there are grounds for > 'guitarne' = figure-of-eight guitar, at least in mid 16th C France. He > continues: > > > > "This however doesn't discount that there are numerous cases where the > figure-8 shaped instrument was called guiterne in French sources of the > same period. It can however be a good guideline if come across that > particular spelling with an "a". However in some cases even this > rule can't be followed, the inventory of yet another instrument builder, > Pierre Aubry in 1596, has "viels lucs de guitarne" - suggesting the > old lute-like gittern." > > Do you know who Pieter is? Nice job if he spends all day researching > gitterns! > > Interesting response just now form Gary Boye on the chitarra italiana. I > hope some day you can translate the second part of Meucci. Interesting > that Gary Boye notes that in Italy the chitarra italiana was a four-course > instrument. > > So we have the 'guiterne' (the lute-like medieval gittern) surviving until > the end of the 16th century (if Pieter is right), the mandore from the > 1580s (which Pieter thinks is not simply the old gittern) and the chitarra > italiana (which is perhaps the old gittern, the chitarino of Pietrobono in > teh 15th century. And buzzing away in the background, the bandurria! > > > Stuart > > > >>> This 'guitarne' is a actually a five-course guitar- or should that be >>> vihuela? We haven't gone over that for a while. Both instruments made by >>> Bill Samson. >>> >>> >>> Stuart >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> > --
