On 26/01/2013 13:06, Pieter Van Tichelen wrote:
Hello Monica,
Stuart relates to some of the written sources in 16th century France
- inventories of builders in Paris made when they died.
Yes, I was just quoting the sources you mentioned in your email,
Pieter.
Some of these inventories try to distinguish between "guiterne" and
"guitarne" (spelling variations on these exist of course, losing the
"n" for example). You can't just prove that the "guiterne" was the
lute-like and "guitarne" the figure-8 shaped instrument or the other
way around, but some of the source do add a but of context like
"viel lucz a guitarne" (old lute-like gitterns). Perhaps confusingly
- and I believe Stuart seems to be fallen a victim - I found more
cases where "lute" context seemed to be related the spelling with an
"a".
Oh no! I've got my guitarnes and guiternes mixed up! I must read what
you have written more carefully.
It is confusing stuff, and I doubt if we will be able to get any
ground-braking theories from the little facts at hand, but some
definite things that can be concluded:
- inventories from builders in Paris seemed to contains instruments
that required a differentiation between a guiterne and guitarne
- some of these instruments get some context that point towards the
lute, most logically then pointing to the old lute-like gittern (the
word "old" even showes up sometimes)
Well that last sentence is getting very tentative. As you say, maybe
not enough is known about the matter. I think you are saying that these
inventories give a reasonable suggestion of the existence of 'the old
lute-like gittern' in France in the 16th century. (And you also say
elsewhere that this instrument is not to be confused with the mandore).
Meucci (thank you Monica!) finds a reference from Bologna1627, an
inventory of 50 Chitare all spagnole and 50 chitarre all'italiana. This
too makes a distinction between two kinds of guitar and presumably is
the same distinction between being made in the French inventories -
between a figure-of-eight guitar and a lute-like guitar.
Pieter- can you spell it out for me: which one
(guitare/guitarne---guitere/guitere) is (with caveats etc) likely to be
the figure-of-eight and which the lute-like one?!
Stuart
I hope this clears things up a bit?
Kind regards,
Pieter
____________________________________________________________________
Van: "Monica Hall" [1]<[email protected]>
Verzonden: vrijdag 25 januari 2013 21:36
Aan: "WALSH STUART" [2]<[email protected]>
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: Bransle Simple for guitarne et guiterne
(Gervaise 1557)
I am getting more confused as the day wears on....
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "WALSH STUART" [3]<[email protected]>
To: "Monica Hall" [4]<[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bransle Simple for guitarne et guiterne
(Gervaise
1557)
> On 25/01/2013 17:23, Monica Hall wrote:
>> Why is it called a guitarne?
>>
>> Monica
>>
>
>
> Monica
>
> I was being slightly mischievous. But Pieter wrote in a recent
email:
>
> "If the source is French and from after 1540, be careful as it
might be
> either for "guitar" or "gittern". Interestingly enough, some
inventories
> of instrument makers like the Denis builders seem to have tried to
make a
> distinction between a "guitarne" and a "guiterne" (where the
guiterne has
> "fondz de lut" or a lute back). I therefore would place it that a
source
> putting an "a" guitar(n)e in France in the second half of the
> 16th century is not referring to the lute-like instrument."
>
> So if Pieter knows what he is talking about, there are grounds for
> 'guitarne' = figure-of-eight guitar, at least in mid 16th C
France. He
> continues:
>
>
>
> "This however doesn't discount that there are numerous cases where
the
> figure-8 shaped instrument was called guiterne in French sources
of the
> same period. It can however be a good guideline if come across
that
> particular spelling with an "a". However in some cases even this
> rule can't be followed, the inventory of yet another instrument
builder,
> Pierre Aubry in 1596, has "viels lucs de guitarne" - suggesting
the
> old lute-like gittern."
>
> Do you know who Pieter is? Nice job if he spends all day
researching
> gitterns!
>
> Interesting response just now form Gary Boye on the chitarra
italiana. I
> hope some day you can translate the second part of Meucci.
Interesting
> that Gary Boye notes that in Italy the chitarra italiana was a
four-course
> instrument.
>
> So we have the 'guiterne' (the lute-like medieval gittern)
surviving until
> the end of the 16th century (if Pieter is right), the mandore from
the
> 1580s (which Pieter thinks is not simply the old gittern) and the
chitarra
> italiana (which is perhaps the old gittern, the chitarino of
Pietrobono in
> teh 15th century. And buzzing away in the background, the
bandurria!
>
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
>>> This 'guitarne' is a actually a five-course guitar- or should
that be
>>> vihuela? We haven't gone over that for a while. Both instruments
made by
>>> Bill Samson.
>>>
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>
--
References
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