Could someone pls. explain why the thinner string is sometimes placed above (baroque practice?) and sometimes below (renaissance practice?) the thicker one? G.
On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Monica Hall <[1][email protected]> wrote: I think octave stringing on the 5th and 6th courses is now thought probably and I think that John Griffiths does that although I amA not certain. The thing is that you have to get the strings perfectly matched so that the high octave string enhances the low octave string but doesn't create a re-entrant effect. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Barto" <[2][email protected]> Cc: "Lutelist" <[3][email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 7:12 AM Subject: [LUTE] Vihuela stringing A Thanks for the interesting comments on Spain vs. Italy A A few years ago there was some discussion that the vihuela sources A weren't so clear about the strict no octave policy. What is the current A thinking on this? A -- A Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. A Antonio Corona <[4][email protected]> wrote: A A Dear friends, A A Regarding the lute in Spain, Douglas Alton Smith, as Dan points out, A A supports a myth, albeit a long established one. And I must agree A A with A A Monica in that it is indeed a rather silly one. For those who can A A read A A Spanish, my book El LaA-od en la EspaA+-a Cristiana (The Lute in A A Christian Spain) is about to appear, published by the Spanish A A Sociedad A A de la Vihuela, el LaA-od y la Guitarra. I hope It my prove helpful A A in A A dispelling the absurd notions about the alleged mistrust of things A A Moorish, besides paying homage to Diana Poulton and Pepe Rey's A A contributions to the matter. A A There is plenty more information and documents about the lute in A A Spain A A than those advanced by Smith, and they attest to a widespread use of A A the instrument there. As a matter of fact,I had already delved into A A the A A matter in my dissertation, and arrived at the conclusion -which I A A now A A can support even better- that the truly aristocratic instrument in A A Renaissance Spain was not the vihuela (as it is generally held), but A A the lute. A A With best wishes, A A Antonio A A __________________________________________________________________ A A From: Dan Winheld <[5][email protected]> A A To: Monica Hall <[6][email protected]>; Mark Seifert A A <[7][email protected]> A A Cc: Lutelist <[8][email protected]> A A Sent: Wednesday, 6 May 2015, 16:53 A A Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy A A Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support A A of A A the rather silly myth from his work, "A History of the Lute", p.221 A A Chapter VIII "The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain": A A "At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a A A lutenist A A in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. A A Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th A A century A A were called 'violero' in the 16th." A A -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what A A it's A A worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? A A (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled "Lutenist" in A A 1999 A A and "Vihuelist" in 2002). A A Dan A A On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: A A > Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute A A > because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. A A > Monica A A > A A > A A > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Seifert" A A <[1][9][email protected]> A A > To: "Ron Andrico" <[2][10][email protected]>; "Christopher Wilke" A A > <[3][11][email protected]>; "Dan Winheld" A A <[4][12][email protected]>; "Rob A A > MacKillop" <[5][13][email protected]>; "Howard Posner" A A > <[6][14][email protected]>; "David Van Ooijen" A A <[7][15][email protected]> A A > Cc: "'Lutelist'" <[8][16][email protected]> A A > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM A A > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy A A > A A > A A >> Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most A A fascinating A A >> topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof A A >> Brittany A A >> Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally A A >> expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an A A important A A >> date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was A A imposed A A >> in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from A A >> their A A >> ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She A A >> didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like A A >> innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the A A >> lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute A A belly A A >> reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a A A pregnant A A >> woman, heaven forbid. A A >> In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of A A >> History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting A A >> decades A A >> before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse A A >> effects of A A >> eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid A A of A A >> all their witches wouldn't improve anything. A A >> I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a A A minimum A A >> wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of A A Widener A A >> Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a A A >> Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor A A >> dusting A A >> a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose A A >> binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the A A date A A >> "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it A A >> out, A A >> opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook A A discussing A A in A A >> incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was A A >> studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it A A covered A A >> how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! A A There A A >> were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I A A suspect A A >> the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the A A century A A >> caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job A A than A A >> the A A >> crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in A A one's A A >> family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on A A >> line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I A A >> didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also A A >> feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish A A had A A >> gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and A A >> Germany. A A >> Mark Seifert A A >> On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel A A >> <[9][17][email protected]> wrote: A A >> Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. A A >> Mathias A A >> > -----Original Message----- A A >> > From: [1][10][18][email protected] A A >> [mailto:[2][11][19][email protected]] On Behalf Of A A >> > Chris Barker A A >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM A A >> > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' A A >> > Cc: 'Lutelist' A A >> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy A A >> > A A >> > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been A A king A A at A A >> that time I'd A A >> > call him a thug too! A A >> > A A >> > Chris A A >> > A A >> > -----Original Message----- A A >> > From: [3][12][20][email protected] A A >> [mailto:[4][13][21][email protected]] On Behalf Of A A >> > Monica Hall A A >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM A A >> > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong A A >> > Cc: Lutelist A A >> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy A A >> > A A >> > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to A A the A A >> Taliban in A A >> > Afghanistan. A A >> > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our A A cultural A A >> heritage. A A >> > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious A A thug. A A >> > Monica A A >> > A A >> > A A >> > ----- Original Message ----- A A >> > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[5][14][22][email protected]> A A >> > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[6][15][23][email protected]> A A >> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[7][16][24][email protected]>; "ml" A A >> <[8][17][25][email protected]>; A A >> > "Lutelist" <[9][18][26][email protected]> A A >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM A A >> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy A A >> > A A >> > A A >> > > A A >> > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better A A for A A >> > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, A A just A A >> saying... A A >> > > A A >> > > ======== A A >> > > A A >> > > II?III? I.I>>IuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I A A 1/4IuI-I?I A A >> 1/2 A A >> IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. A A >> > > HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. A A >> > > aeCURe>>aaeuae>>P:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea A A >> > > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. A A >> > > A A >> > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler A A <[10][19][27][email protected]> A A >> wrote: A A >> > >> A A >> > >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting A A article A A >> > >> A A >> > >> A A [11][20][1][28]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.p df A A >> > >> A A >> > >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an A A inappropriate A A >> set A A >> > >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" A A of A A >> the A A >> > >> English Queen. A A >> > >> A A >> > >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that A A >> England A A >> > >> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! A A >> > >> A A >> > >> All the best A A >> > >> Mark A A >> > >> A A >> > >> A A >> > >> A A >> > >> A A >> > >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: A A >> > >>> A A >> > >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an A A >> > >>> inappropriate set of criteria. A A >> > >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world A A because A A >> most A A >> > >>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point A A of A A >> view. A A >> > >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured A A >> people A A >> > >>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. A A >> > >>> A A >> > >>> Monica briefly A A >> > >>> A A >> > >>> A A >> > >>> A A >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" A A >> <[12][21][29][email protected]> A A >> > >>> To: "LUTELIST List" <[13][22][30][email protected]> A A >> > >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM A A >> > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy A A >> > >>> A A >> > >>> A A >> > >>>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative A A >> > >>>> thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than A A England A A >> or A A >> > >>>> France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, A A >> morality A A >> > >>>> (for instance A A >> > >>>> sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication A A of A A >> nearly A A >> > >>>> everything. A A >> > >>>> A A >> > >>>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) A A hits A A >> the A A >> > >>>> nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that A A Satan A A >> was A A >> > >>>> seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, A A the A A >> > >>>> witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the A A attention A A is A A >> > >>>> focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in A A Spain), A A >> the A A >> > >>>> witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european A A >> > >>>> countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here A A the A A >> > >>>> protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. A A Only A A >> two A A >> > >>>> countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general A A fear: A A >> > >>>> Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more A A >> pagan A A >> > >>>> than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because A A the A A >> > >>>> church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any A A >> case, it A A >> > >>>> seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a A A >> lesser degree than A A >> > other countries." A A >> > >>>> A A >> > >>>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. A A Il A A >> cosmo A A >> > >>>> di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in A A micro-history, A A >> > >>>> Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. A A >> > >>>> Galileo's case is of course very well known. A A >> > >>>> A A >> > >>>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that A A >> past. A A >> > >>>> A A >> > >>>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) A A >> > >>>> A A >> > >>>> Manolo A A >> > >>>> A A >> > >>>> A A >> > >>>> A A >> > >>>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith A A <[14][23][31][email protected]> A A >> escribiA^3: A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in A A Dalza's A A >> > >>>>> book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points A A to A A a A A >> > >>>>> refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his A A >> Ferrerese A A >> or A A >> > >>>>> Venetiana dance cycles. A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> Sean A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> A word of caution here: A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed A A >> evidence A A >> > >>>>> (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great A A deal A A >> of A A >> > >>>>> music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of A A these A A >> > >>>>> formal, published works. A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an A A >> > >>>>> imprimatur from a conservative and literally A A Inquisitorial A A >> > >>>>> government was unlikely with a large collection of dance A A >> music; A A >> > >>>>> much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred A A >> > >>>>> intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider A A >> repertoire, A A >> > >>>>> as does the existence of guitar music from a later A A period. A A Who A A >> > >>>>> knows what was happening on the streets, but the A A Inquisition A A >> > >>>>> wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a A A >> straight-laced as A A >> > the vihuela tablatures make it seem . A A >> > >>>>> . . A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> Gary A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye A A >> > >>>>> Professor and Music Librarian A A >> > >>>>> Appalachian State University A A >> > >>>>> A A >> > >>>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: A A >> > >>>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural A A groups A A >> that A A >> > >>>>>> had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at A A once. A A It A A >> was A A >> > >>>>>> said that when all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, A A scholars, A A >> > >>>>>> scientists, and artists & academics showed up on his A A >> doorstep, A A >> > >>>>>> the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the King of Spain lost A A his A A >> mind?" A A >> > >>>>>> A A >> > >>>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great A A >> vihuela A A >> > >>>>>> music a lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to A A >> Italy A A >> & A A >> > >>>>>> Germany for a little jumping around. A A >> > >>>>>> A A >> > >>>>>> Dan A A >> > >>>>>> A A >> > >>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: A A >> > >>>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because A A Spain A A >> had A A >> > >>>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had A A >> moved to A A >> Italy. A A >> > >>>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile A A courtiers A A >> > >>>>>>> (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time A A on A A >> their A A >> > >>>>>>> hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal A A polyphony A A >> they A A >> > >>>>>>> could put their hands on. A A >> > >>>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in A A Fuenllana's A A >> > >>>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published A A books. A A >> > >>>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in A A >> Naples, A A >> > >>>>>>> which was Spanish at the time. A A >> > >>>>>>> RA A A >> > >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 A A >> > >>>>>>>> To: [15][24][32][email protected] A A >> > >>>>>>>> From: [16][25][33][email protected] A A >> > >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy A A >> > >>>>>>>> A A >> > >>>>>>>> Hi all, A A >> > >>>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in A A Italian A A >> lute A A >> > >>>>>>>> music A A >> > >>>>>>> and A A >> > >>>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ? A A >> > >>>>>>>> Thanks A A >> > >>>>>>>> -- A A >> > >>>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please A A excuse A A my A A >> brevity. A A >> > >>>>>>>> A A >> > >>>>>>>> A A >> > >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at A A >> > >>>>>>>> A A [17][26][2][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm l A A >> > >>>>>>> A A >> > >>>>>>> -- A A >> > >>>> A A >> > >>>> A A >> > >>>> -- A A >> > >> A A >> > >> A A >> > >> A A >> > > A A >> > > A A >> > A A >> > A A >> A A >> -- A A >> A A >> References A A >> A A >> 1. mailto:[27][35][email protected] A A >> 2. mailto:[28][36][email protected] A A >> 3. mailto:[29][37][email protected] A A >> 4. mailto:[30][38][email protected] A A >> 5. mailto:[31][39][email protected] A A >> 6. mailto:[32][40][email protected] A A >> 7. mailto:[33][41][email protected] A A >> 8. mailto:[34][42][email protected] A A >> 9. mailto:[35][43][email protected] A A >> 10. mailto:[36][44][email protected] A A >> 11. A A [37][3][45]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf A A >> 12. mailto:[38][46][email protected] A A >> 13. mailto:[39][47][email protected] A A >> 14. mailto:[40][48][email protected] A A >> 15. mailto:[41][49][email protected] A A >> 16. mailto:[42][50][email protected] A A >> 17. [43][4][51]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html A A >> A A > A A > A A > A A -- A A References A A 1. mailto:[52][email protected] A A 2. mailto:[53][email protected] A A 3. mailto:[54][email protected] A A 4. mailto:[55][email protected] A A 5. mailto:[56][email protected] A A 6. mailto:[57][email protected] A A 7. mailto:[58][email protected] A A 8. mailto:[59][email protected] A A 9. mailto:[60][email protected] A A 10. mailto:[61][email protected] A A 11. mailto:[62][email protected] A A 12. mailto:[63][email protected] A A 13. mailto:[64][email protected] A A 14. mailto:[65][email protected] A A 15. mailto:[66][email protected] A A 16. mailto:[67][email protected] A A 17. mailto:[68][email protected] A A 18. mailto:[69][email protected] A A 19. mailto:[70][email protected] A A 20.[5] [71]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf A A 21. mailto:[72][email protected] A A 22. mailto:[73][email protected] A A 23. mailto:[74][email protected] A A 24. mailto:[75][email protected] A A 25. mailto:[76][email protected] A A 26.[6] [77]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html A A 27. mailto:[78][email protected] A A 28. mailto:[79][email protected] A A 29. mailto:[80][email protected] A A 30. mailto:[81][email protected] A A 31. mailto:[82][email protected] A A 32. mailto:[83][email protected] A A 33. mailto:[84][email protected] A A 34. mailto:[85][email protected] A A 35. mailto:[86][email protected] A A 36. mailto:[87][email protected] A A 37.[7] [88]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf A A 38. mailto:[89][email protected] A A 39. mailto:[90][email protected] A A 40. mailto:[91][email protected] A A 41. mailto:[92][email protected] A A 42. mailto:[93][email protected] A A 43.[8] [94]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References A 1. 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