Ah - interpolation in bold doesn't seem to work here so I'll cut and
paste below.
(To Wayne - I think you've explained this before so excuse me for being
a bit dim: but can't the original paragraph spacings and even font
types be preserved in these threads? - it makes it so much easier to
converse....)
MP: why between 1670 were mentioned gut wound strings only /
MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to
plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into
the
eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic
basses,
etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of
wire required for thin double strung courses may have
also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The
madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses.
MP The 6 course spanish guitar is a good example: it employed silk
wound strings /
Indeed, from when? Do we know? I've assumed wound basses they came in
with the Spanish sixth course around 1760/70 but have no direct
evidence for such an date./
MH Mace mentions the Dm tuning and even gives a set of Lessons in it MM
181-186
Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book./
MH I wonder too - but perhaps Playford was following a new technology
only
recently imported from Europe? The Commonwealth etc reduced many
continental links until just after the Interregnum. The St Colombe
use
of viol wound also seems fairly persuasive.
MH Yes, I agree the links between late mandora and late 5 eighteenth
century 5/6 course guitars suggests a degree of interchange of
knowledge/experience by players (S Moliotor's notes about some
Viennese
mandora player stringing his instrument with single strings are
particularly compelling).
However I am not close to the idea of silk wound strings but having
more historical evidences/
MH Yes - I again agree
On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:47:30 GMT, Martyn Hodgson
<[email protected]> wrote:
And thank you too Mimmo,
I'll interpolate my responses in bold italic below if I may
regards
Martyn
On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:05:18 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde
Armoniche <[1][email protected]> wrote:
Grazie Martyn,
However I have the necessity to have historical evidences about the
evidence of the use of silk wound strings
Yes; silk wound strings are louder so I wonder: why between 1670
were mentioned gut wound strings only (on d minor 11 course german
lutes -see the 1715 source and others recently discovererd by me-
then
for 5 course guitar)?
MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to
plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into
the
eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic
basses,
etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of
wire required for thin double strung courses may have
also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The
madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses.
Close or open wound types does not matter now.
Maybe there is a technical explanation: I have done very extensive
tests with silk wound strings for the 11 and 13 course d minor lute
basses: they does not work properly (I have not space here to explain
why, but there are strong both acoustical and technical problems
that
cannot be solved) while they work in excellent way in different
situations, expecially if there are single strings and/or if the
tension has a certain higher level like I thinks that it was in use
on
these kind of instruments (no historical evidences, just my opinion
having seen the presence of fan bracing, the thick soundboards on
some
surviving in strument and the description of the loud bass sonority
found in old sources). The 6 course spanish guitar is a good
example:
it employed silk wound strings
Indeed, from when? Do we know? I've assumed wound basses they came in
with the Spanish sixth course around 1760/70 but have no direct
evidence for such an date.
Mace is the best source ever in matter of lute strings and Talbot
is
still today one of the best source of the very begginning od the
XVIII
c. but there is a but: they are both english. I do not
thinks/remember
if this intrument was in use also in England: maybe Mace & Talbot
were
not aware of the existence of this type of instrument? Who know.
They
do not mentioned for example the d minor lutes and the 5 course
guitars
Mace mentions the Dm tuning and even gives a set of Lessons in it MM
181-186
Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book.
I wonder too - but perhaps Playford was following a new technology
only
recently imported from Europe? The Commonwealth etc reduced many
continental links until just after the Interregnum. The St Colombe
use
of viol wound also seems fairly persuasive.
Facts are facts and the evidence of wound strings realized gut cores
for the 11 course lutes & guitars is compelling. The 1760 guitar
sources are here very clear: when they describes for the first time
silk wound strings they explained the things in a way that is clear
that they are introducing something of new and better.
Yes, I agree the links between late mandora and late 5 eighteenth
century 5/6 course guitars suggests a degree of interchange of
knowledge/experience by players (S Moliotor's notes about some
Viennese
mandora player stringing his instrument with single strings are
particularly compelling).
However I am not close to the idea of silk wound strings but having
more historical evidences
Yes - I again agree
Thanks for the contribute. Ciao
regards
Martyn
Da: Martyn Hodgson <[2][email protected]>
Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 11:20
A: Lute List <[3][email protected]>; Mimmo - Aquila Corde
Armoniche
<[4][email protected]>
Oggetto: Re: R: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon
website
Thanks Mimmo,
Regarding silk cores for overwound strings, I agree that they are
louder and more focused than those with just plain gut cores.
However, whilst Mace and Talbot don't mention such strings, I see no
reason to doubt the accuracy of the well known comment by Playford (a
very significant and well established publisher and promoter) that
wound strings on silk cores were known, and indeed preferred, at the
time. And so if in England, which had just undergone revolutionary
wars etc, how much more in continental Europe and in particular areas
with a history of fine wire drawing and string manufacture. In
short,
I see no reason to suppose that overwound strings (and those on silk
too) were not becoming known in many parts of Europe by the second
half
of the seventeenth century (for such instruments as the calchedon as
while as the bass viol). But, as we agree, more work is clearly
required....
Finally, it is relevant that the large continuo calchedon seems to
have
often (generally?) employed single strings: so the diameter of
overwinding wire can be quite substantial (as on the large bass viol
employed by Staine Colombe et als at around this time).
regards,
Martyn
On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 09:43:48 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde
Armoniche <[1][5][email protected]> wrote:
Hi Martyn,
thank you very much to inform me in matter.
The open question about this instrument is still today not totally
solved.
So, I am doing my job concerning the strings only around the
instrument
that was in use in Germany around 1740-90 with 6 course (Niggel
types)
or even more (for example Wenger models).
I agree with you that a such instrument sould be quite loud and
competitive to the 7 bass viol (there are some historical sources
that
mention this thing).
The problem is all round the use of the overspan strings, but only
those thatb employ silk in the cores (those with gut cores are less
loud)
But the first mention of silk cores (5 course guitars come form
Guerrero (Spain 1760's) who wrote that in Spain they use wound silk
wound strings because they are louder than the traditional wound
strings with gut cores. Then there is Corrette that suggest the use
of
silk cores.
At today the only mention od possible silk cores come form John
Playford in 1664 but Both T Mace and Talbot do not mentioned them at
all.
Need more investigations
Ciao
Mimmo
Da: Martyn Hodgson <[2][6][email protected]>
Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 10:31
A: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[3][7][email protected]>;
Lute
List <[4][8][email protected]>
Oggetto: Fw: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon
website
Dear Mimmo,
Sorry, in my earlier I gave the wrong year for the Edlinger
calchedon:
- it should be 1728 not 1729 (the latter is the year Edlinger died).
The instrument is part of the collection in the Narodnà ¬ Museum,
Prague. Here's a link to a Czech language magazine site with a pic.
[5][9]https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi4yd
qF-
__lAhWu34UKHXUXBB0QjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhudebnirozhledy.scena.c
z%2Fwww%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dclanek%26id_clanku%3D2519&psig=AOvVaw3UC3U
L_IcQLJPxLR8YZdod&ust=1574585668331802
regards
Martyn
----- Forwarded message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson <[6][10][email protected]>
To: Braig, Eugene <[7][11][email protected]>;
[8][12][email protected]
<[9][13][email protected]>; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche
<[10][14][email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 22 November 2019, 12:34:24 GMT
Subject: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Hello Mimmo,
By coincidence I've also been developing a paper on early gallichon
stringing for some time now, but have made but poor progress -
mainly
due to lack of suitable iconography showing such details in enough
detail to draw definitive conclusions.
My own thesis is that the very earliest calchedons/gallichons, were
developed in Bohemia and northern Austrian lands in the 1660s and
made
use of the newly invented overwound strings to give a robust bass
down
to contabass ,A ( ie almost as low as the theorbo lowest bass) and
so
produce an easily manageable instrument able to play chromatically
in
the lowest register. The Edlinger of 1729 is, I think, a
particularly
good example of the fully developed large continuo form of the
instrument (though I think there may have been some modifications
to
the finial of the pegbox).
This instrument is is mentioned in the recent FoMRHI paper (link
below)
as is also the possible relationships to the Italian instrument
briefly
touched on in my earlier. Much food for thought....
[1][11][15]https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomr
hi-1
31/C
omm%202037.pdf
regards
Martyn
On Friday, 22 November 2019, 10:08:17 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde
Armoniche <[12][16][email protected]> wrote:
Hello,
This si really a good idea.
I have this contribute that, in my opinion, the best painting
concerning Gallichon/Mandora (I am doing article in matter of a
possible historical string setup)
[2][13][17]https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.ht
ml?a
=120
&s=-1&c=683
Mimmo Peruffo
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: [3][14][18][email protected]
<[4][15][19][email protected]> Per conto di
Braig,
Eugene
Inviato: giovedà ¬ 21 novembre 2019 19:32
A: [5][16][20][email protected]
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
I look forward to watching the site develop. Thank you, Rainer.
Eugene
-----Original Message-----
From: [6][17][21][email protected]
<[7][18][22][email protected]> On Behalf Of
Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM
To: [8][19][23][email protected]
Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website
Dear Lute-List,
I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century
mandora/gallichon.
This might be a place for general information about the
instrument(s),
its history, where it has been played, composers, and, and,
and.....but
also information about where to find a player, a lutemaker, and
last
but not least a download page for lots of pieces.
Those who already know a bit about 18th century mandora music:
don't
be
afraid! I'm not going to present hundreds of bad and boaring
menuets
there. Amongst all the manuscripts which I have (quite a lot, in
copy
of
course) I've found many interesting pieces, technically not to much
demanding, often with nice melodies, and sometimes music of high
quality in baroque or gallant style.
During the last years I've made a collection of my favorite pieces
and
suites, and I made readable copies of it with Fronimo. Probably
other
mandora players did the same. So why not putting together the whole
mandora wisdom and repertoire and collect it in the web,
downloadable
for free and open to all.
That's quite a lot of work of which I've already done a bit.
Therefore
I would like to ask the mandora players of amongst us (I know there
are
some....) to participate to this idea, and to contribute whatever
might be of interest.
You can have a look to this very basic website with just an
index-page,
a completely empty "about Mandora"-page and the impressum (which is
obligatory in Germany).
The web adress is: [20]www.gallichon.de
But some buttons are already there, and so at least you can see
which
themes I have integrated until now. But that's just work in
progress,
and to be filled with real information soon. If you have any
suggestion
about what else should be there, if you have any material to share,
don't hesitate to contact me. The website shall be in english and
german. As you certainly have seen I'm not a native speaker. Any
help
in transforming my poor english into something closer to good
english
is welcome.
Let's try it.
Rainer
--
______________________
SEICENTO-Notenversand
Rainer Luckhardt
Holbeinstrasse 12
D-79312 Emmendingen
Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803
Internet: [21]www.seicentomusic.de
VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317
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References
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[23][25]https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-
131/
Comm 2037.pdf
2.
[24][26]https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?
a=12
0&s=-1&c=683
3. mailto:[25][27][email protected]
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6. mailto:[28][30][email protected]
7. mailto:[29][31][email protected]
8. mailto:[30][32][email protected]
9. [31][33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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References
1. mailto:[34][email protected]
2. mailto:[35][email protected]
3. mailto:[36][email protected]
4. mailto:[37][email protected]
5.
[38]https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi4ydqF
-__lAhWu34UKHXUXBB0QjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=http://hudebnirozhledy.scena.cz/www
/index.php?page=clanek&id_clanku=2519&psig=AOvVaw3UC3UL_IcQLJPxLR8YZdod
&ust=1574585668331802
6. mailto:[39][email protected]
7. mailto:[40][email protected]
8. mailto:[41][email protected]
9. mailto:[42][email protected]
10. mailto:[43][email protected]
11.
[44]https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-131/
C
12. mailto:[45][email protected]
13.
[46]https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a=12
0
14. mailto:[47][email protected]
15. mailto:[48][email protected]
16. mailto:[49][email protected]
17. mailto:[50][email protected]
18. mailto:[51][email protected]
19. mailto:[52][email protected]
20. [53]http://www.gallichon.de/
21. [54]http://www.seicentomusic.de/
22. [55]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
23.
[56]https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-131/
Comm
24.
[57]https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a=12
0&s=-1&c=683
25. mailto:[58][email protected]
26. mailto:[59][email protected]
27. mailto:[60][email protected]
28. mailto:[61][email protected]
29. mailto:[62][email protected]
30. mailto:[63][email protected]
31. [64]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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References
1. mailto:[email protected]
2. mailto:[email protected]
3. mailto:[email protected]
4. mailto:[email protected]
5. mailto:[email protected]
6. mailto:[email protected]
7. mailto:[email protected]
8. mailto:[email protected]
9. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi4ydqF-
10. mailto:[email protected]
11. mailto:[email protected]
12. mailto:[email protected]
13. mailto:[email protected]
14. mailto:[email protected]
15. https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-1
16. mailto:[email protected]
17. https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a
18. mailto:[email protected]
19. mailto:[email protected]
20. mailto:[email protected]
21. mailto:[email protected]
22. mailto:[email protected]
23. mailto:[email protected]
24. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
25. https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-131/
26. https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a=12
27. mailto:[email protected]
28. mailto:[email protected]
29. mailto:[email protected]
30. mailto:[email protected]
31. mailto:[email protected]
32. mailto:[email protected]
33. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
34. mailto:[email protected]
35. mailto:[email protected]
36. mailto:[email protected]
37. mailto:[email protected]
38.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi4ydqF-__lAhWu34UKHXUXBB0QjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=http://hudebnirozhledy.scena.cz/www/index.php?page=clanek&id_clanku=2519&psig=AOvVaw3UC3UL_IcQLJPxLR8YZdod&ust=1574585668331802
39. mailto:[email protected]
40. mailto:[email protected]
41. mailto:[email protected]
42. mailto:[email protected]
43. mailto:[email protected]
44. https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-131/C
45. mailto:[email protected]
46. https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a=120
47. mailto:[email protected]
48. mailto:[email protected]
49. mailto:[email protected]
50. mailto:[email protected]
51. mailto:[email protected]
52. mailto:[email protected]
53. http://www.gallichon.de/
54. http://www.seicentomusic.de/
55. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
56. https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-131/Comm
57.
https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a=120&s=-1&c=683
58. mailto:[email protected]
59. mailto:[email protected]
60. mailto:[email protected]
61. mailto:[email protected]
62. mailto:[email protected]
63. mailto:[email protected]
64. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
