Hey Serendipity I really appreciate you talking at length about this and answering my questions.
I understand your point of view a lot better now, it's interesting. Thank you --manekineko http://www.mailart.org --- In [email protected], serendipity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If the mail art world mirrors the real world, than consider this to be like TV. Lots of things are advertised on TV...things some people can afford and some people can't. I can't afford a Hummer. I can afford a Ford...or a Schwinn...or a buss pass or a good pair of walking shoes. Does that mean that Hummer should stop making cars? No, it just means that a segement of the market can't buy one. And that's ok. I think its idealic to want everyone to be able to participate in everything. > > The beauty of mail art is that unlike at the Hummer dealership, I can decide to send a book out for free. I can opt not to cash a check. I can send extra goodies in with a book....if the participant comunicates with me. Do I get the artwork in the end "for free"? Isn't that what basic mail art is? You send me a piece of artwork without expectation and maybe I send one back. Though, I don't consider myself getting the art for "free". The overhead of this project is substantial and the risk (not having enough books to do an exhibit) is significant and that leads to a shift in participation expectation. > > Participants expect to see their work on the blog and they expect to see their work shown somewhere publically next year...in at least one city. They also expect that I will not document their work specifically other than to say they participated. Lastly, they expect that their work will survive publically and not become part of a private library...and in order for me to meet those expectations, I have to get the books back. Paying the fee sets those expectations...and I'm doing everything I can to honor that "contract". > > I'm not selling the books at the end. I'm sharing the art with people who may not have seen work like this before. I'm changing the format of mail art and adding a level of communication and engagement that's different than it has been in the past by adding the journaling element to collaborative art journals. I hope to exhibit these late next year. All in an effort to give back to the Network...to draw more people in. > > So, to get to your Bill/Oprah scenario. If $10-15 is a substantial portion of your income...say, more than 10% of your disposable income for a month...this may not be a call for you. Just as I would not be able to participate in the Bill/Oprah project at $2000. Do I think that should stop Bill and Oprah? No. I don't think it should stop them. That call would bring a new set of people to mail art. It would lead to incredible publicity...and the work would end up in public forum for all people to consider...and that's a good thing. Does it suck that I can't play too? Sure. It does. But overall, its good....and I'm all for it. However...I will admit, I would contact Bill and Oprah to see if there's room for a non-paying artist like myself. > > Overall, I consider mail art calls with a fee just one more option on the mail art menu....and I love the increase in options...even if I can't afford to participate in them all. > > > > mailart_manekineko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oh yeah I definately don't bring any anger to this, I visit your blog > quite a bit and like alot of what you have going. I'm just trying to > get my mind around this a little. > > I'm not sure that percentage of income is irrelevant. If Bill Gates or > Oprah Winfrey were to say > > "I am hosting a mail art call, but in the interest of getting my stuff > back, there will be a fee of $2000." > > then even Americans would think it was ludicrous how exclusive it is, > and it would be weirder still if the host did not intend it to be so. > > What I am saying is that $10 to you or me might as well be $2000 to > alot of people, and it is just as exclusive. > > Now if Bill Gates was to return the fee when he got his books back, > then that's a different story. > > Until then though, the result is that he gets everyone's art for free, > and is the only one involved with the call that didn't have to pay > postage. > > --manekineko > http://www.mailart.org > > --- In [email protected], serendipity <serendipityartist@> > wrote: > > > > I was only speaking for myself...and therefore, that's my > reality...when my reality is better...and my funding is strong, I > don't worry so much about the fee and therefore can take the risk of > sending the books out at my own expense. The point of the $88 was to > say exactly what you have...which is... its a helluva lot of > money...whether its for gas in my tank or food for my children. > Either way, either use...its a lot of money to go "poof" in the mail > box. Your distinction between how the money is used or what percetage > of my income that it accounts for is irrelevant in the long run. It's > just plain too much money to throw away. Period. > > > > Initially I thought your concern was around people making money on > mail art. If your query is about inclusion vs. exclusion...then I > would say this: Mail art...most art I would guess...is about > communication. Do you honestly believe I am charging a fee to exclude > people from the project? Have I communicated a world view of that > nature between the lines of my call? > > > > Actually, I would think the very nature of the call would lead > most artists to at least guess that I want to get as many people > involved as possible, but I also want to get the books back. > > > > So...to answer your question fully we have to try to drill down to > the intent vs. impact level. My intent is just to get people in the > game far enough to follow through. The impact is that I'm excluding > people. The middle ground is that I communicate extensively with the > Network and I am diligent in ensuring that interested artists have > venues for contacting me to discuss the fee. I am receptive to > dialogue about my call(s) and try to offer "free play" as much as > possible. I also try to run simulataneous calls that parallel each > other. Right now I have 11 mini art journals out and > about...freebies...and anyone can be added to the list...but > again...those are the ones that are missing. > > > > This is an interesting string of dialogue considering that my day > job is Diveristy Initiatives. I fully understand the impact vs. > intent conundrum and try to mitigate it as best I can...but there are > no easy answers, so we have to jump in with both feet and do the best > we can. The first step is to assume that we are all here with caring > in our hearts and have no malice toward one another. If we start > there, the process is much more fun. > > > > What do you think? > > > > mailart_manekineko <manekineko@> wrote: > > Good points. I guess the problem is that while > > > > $88 is gas money for two weeks for you, > > > > it's > > > > One month+ total income for most humans. > > > > Most people don't even have cars, let alone have money to spend > > fueling someone elses. > > > > So by charging a fee, are you not eliminating all but the richest > > segments of the world? > > > > I know this is an old debate but as you are someone who charges fees, > > I am interested to know your side of this. > > > > --manekineko > > http://www.mailart.org > > > > --- In [email protected], serendipity <serendipityartist@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes, mail art IS changing. > > > > > > I think as more people come to it the "rules of engagement" change > > to accomodate the influx. There's been a significant rise in the > > number of people trying to better understand how the mail art > > phenomenon works...let alone how to create artwork that will > > realistically make it through the mail. > > > > > > Also, we are experiencing a shift in the kinds of art that's being > > created...I'm into art journals, handmade paper collage, mail book art > > and zine work. That means my mail art interests push the fringe of > > traditional mail art swaps. Which leads me to postage! Postal fees > > have gone up...and continue to do so, depending on the type of art > > you're into, the cost of postage and supplies can be significant...and > > the TIME and TECHNOLOGY associated with hosting a call well is > > extensive. T > > > > > > he painful part of the whole process is making the investment only > > to have participant not follow through....and it's not just the > > newbies that don't do what they say they will do...its everyone. I > > mean, life happens...but that doesn't reimburse me for printing when I > > send someone a 15 page, full color zine that they never recipricate > > for...AND they post pictures of it on their blog as if it were there > > own...or $8 collaborative art journals that go out and never, ever > > come home. I have sent out 11 ($88 bucks!) books to a ring of artist > > I know and not one book has come home. There are sightings of a few > > from time to time...but the others...they are gone. I took a > > chance...and keep hoping they will find their way home, but who knows. > > > > > > So yes, things are changing. We all try to find ways to mitigate > > our losses and alleviate the pain. I don't have a problem with the > > shift overall...as long as people are just trying to break even...to > > not throw money out the window in the name of mail art. As the > > economy shifts, maybe those losses won't be as painful, but for now, > > $88 is my gas money for 2 weeks. > > > > > > I think the Network needs all of the options...pay-to-play, newbie > > swaps, Yahoo boards, art blogs, funny money, 4x6, lumpy cards, > > collaborative copier collage, mail art books, zines...we need all of > > these options. Take what you like, leave what you hate, discuss the > > various points in between...but change is good, if for nothing more > > than the discussion of what was vs. what can be. > > > > > > seren > > > > > > mailart_manekineko <manekineko@> wrote: > > > > > > Yeah there seems to be a growing number of people involving money with > > > mail art in other ways too...like requiring a fee for participation, > > > or outright selling. > > > > > > I saw someone the other day who sells artistamps on her blog - not > > > made for any other purpose - so that the buyers can make 'mail art'. > > > > > > It seems like there is this alternate universe of people who are doing > > > something very different than what I know mail art to be - mostly > > > involving cash as a requirement. Is mailart changing, or are these > > > people doing something else and calling it 'mail art'? > > > > > > --manekineko > > > http://www.mailart.org > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Alice Kitselman <dragonfly@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Just popped over to the http://www.envelopecollective.com/ (Cool > site > > > > by the way) and noticed that these fellows seem to be planning on > > > > eventually using the envelopes they have collected to raise > money for > > > > charity. No specific cause has been identified as yet. > > > > > > > > Ok, so I know we have pondered about this before, but what do > you all > > > > think about the rising number of folks who are "selling" mail > art for > > > > charity??? > > > > > > > > Dragonfly Dream > > > > www.dragonflydream.com > > > > > > > > "It's something wonderful to get a letter. The paper, the stamp, > the > > > > envelope. It is not just a piece of paper. It is something sacred. " > > > > > > > > IBRAHIM ISMAIL ZAIDEN, a postman in Baghdad, Iraq. > > > > > > > > (quoted in the New York Times) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and > > 30+ countries) for 2�/min or less. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mailinglist from Sztuka Fabryka http://www.sztuka-fabryka.be/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ma-network/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ma-network/join (Yahoo! 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