Hi Brian, One of these days, I'd like to sit down with you and hear this happen. It's easier to actually hear things happening to get an idea of what is going on.
Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 20, 2013, at 4:48 PM, Brian Fischler <blindga...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hey John, > > Yes, I agree who ever made the half baked comment seems to be going a little > far. > > As for me and numbers, I am not sure what my issue is as the final straw with > using it was the constant VO crashing when using it. I am not sure if > crashing is the appropriate term, what would happen is I would be working > with a numbers document and VO would just completely stop working. I couldn't > enter any text in to a cell. VO would stop reading and I would try and type > anyway, thinking that maybe it was just a VO issue and text was being entered > into a cell, but after quitting numbers and restarting I would go back to the > cell and none of the text I had just entered was there. This started to occur > more and more frequently, and when you are working with a cell that is at the > midway point of a document it would take forever to get back there only to > enter text in the cell move to the next cell and have the same thing occur > all over again. I tried the various work arounds suggested to me, but had no > luck with the find commands, and did find it a little ridiculous that I would > have to go through about seven steps to do a certain find/search criteria > including a VO F3 to toggle stuff off. I decided I was losing so much time > spending on these issues that I just switched over to a database program. Now > does that mean I don't know how to use a mac? No. Was it unbelievably > frustrating and did I view it as way to time consuming? Yes. Did I think that > Apple should come up with a better way and should have done so by now, yes. > Does it mean if numbers is improved that I will go back to it? Yes. I don't > see anything wrong with questioning apple at all. I'm not one of these people > that thinks I need to bow down to Apple for everything they do, not > everything they do is everyone going to agree with. They are a company in > business to make money. Is their record with accessibility fantastic? Yes, is > it perfect, no. Would I consider going back to windows? Not unless they came > a long long way with improvements in accessibility. > On Jul 20, 2013, at 4:28 PM, John Panarese <jpanar...@mac-access.net> wrote: > >> There is nothing wrong with opinions and I think I had tried to make that >> clear in my post. However, there is a difference between personal opinion >> and making blanket statements that you feel reflect what everyone should >> think. If you think Mac accessibility is "half baked", well, as I said, >> that is your opinion and you have a right to that. Fortunately, the vast >> number of blind Mac users surely don't see it that way, and I have yet to >> encounter a client who has come to that conclusion in 3 years of doing Mac >> training. >> >> As I told someone off list, and at the risk of being accused of flaming >> anyone, from several years on lists and particularly being subscribed to >> about five blind Mac or iOS user lists, when someone makes a statement >> generalized to detract from the use of the Mac as a tool equal in value to >> Windows, there are one of three reasons or positions at work: >> >> 1. The user really has not learned the Mac well enough to be qualified to >> make any blanket statements. I can't tell you how many people I have met >> who have had limited use or understanding of the Mac, but find it necessary >> to tell people that the Mac isn't on the same accessibility grounds as >> Windows. It's like taking a car for a fifteen minute test drive and then >> bashing the car on every category as if you have owned it for five years. >> Does anyone remember the first AFB review on VoiceOver in 2005? >> >> 2. The user has used the Mac, but still is at the point in which they don't >> know enough about the Mac to truly speak with any expertise. In other >> words, as the expression goes, they know enough to be dangerous. I often >> see this in the world of Windows with JAWS or Window-Eyes users who want to >> criticize the other camp. You may know how to do a lot of things, but your >> experience and knowledge is still lacking and you don't know enough about >> what else can be done because you haven't taken the time to thoroughly find >> out. >> >> 3. There is another political or personal a gender at work. In other words, >> the Mac could demonstrate utter perfection when it comes to accessibility, >> and the user will still find fault with it or seek to disparage it because >> they have a vested interest in such criticisms. >> >> This, of course, excludes the general contrarians or the basic Apple hater >> or the person who just doesn't like the Mac on the grounds that, well, they >> just don't like it. >> >> As for Numbers, keep this in mind, Brian. There has not been a major >> upgrade to the iWorks suite in 4 years. It is still called, iWork09. In >> other words, it is highly likely Apple has a major update coming with >> Mavericks, which will be more than just a few minor tweaks. I do use large >> spreadsheets, but I don't often have the kinds of behaviors you have >> reported. Whether that is because of my system configuration, how I >> maintain my Mac or just a system specific matter is something I don't know >> for sure. All I can tell you is that many blind Mac users are using Numbers >> and Pages every day and, like in Windows, they find work arounds to >> accomplish tasks. We have a very good, knowledgeable person on this list >> who teaches iWork accessibility who often provides suggestions for work >> arounds and approaches for using Pages and Numbers. >> >> >> >> Take Care >> >> John D. Panarese >> Director >> Mac for the Blind >> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >> >> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >> >> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >> >> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 20, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Brian Fischler <blindga...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hey John, Relax. It is great to read everyone's opinions on the topic. Do >>> some people go to far saying that Apple isn't committed to accessibility. >>> Sure, but hey that is their opinion. In my posting, I am just saying, I >>> don't know how something so simple as web spots can be reversed as it is >>> completely illogical to now have to click left to go right and right to go >>> left. Also is it annoying that accessibility of numbers keeps getting worse >>> and worse, yes. Try using a large spread sheet or doing a search for a >>> certain word in numbers. I would have hoped for more improvements by now, >>> but I do understand that Voiceover is a very very small segment of Apple >>> users, and I do appreciate Apple's commitment to it. Yes, I have heard the >>> horror stories about the accessibility of windows, and overall I am a >>> pretty happy mac user. Am I threatening to go back to windows, no, I am >>> simply stating my opinion and disappointments with certain areas of >>> accessibility, and getting Apple's standard response for years every time I >>> do contact them. >>> >>> Does the blind community complain to much? No more than any other >>> community. I guarantee boards for other accessibility areas are filled with >>> the same kind of complaints as everyone wants everything to be about them, >>> it's the human condition. I could only imagine how much moaning and >>> complaining is going on about the Yankees on a Yankees board, just to use >>> them as an example. >>> On Jul 20, 2013, at 2:28 PM, John Panarese <jpanar...@mac-access.net> wrote: >>> >>>> OK, maybe I am missing something here, but I am reading some of the most >>>> ridiculous and assumption ridden posts in this thread. How in the world >>>> can you say the Mac is half-baked? The Mac is just as accessible as >>>> Windows at this point, and for whatever weaknesses you can point out in OS >>>> X, I can equally find in Windows. I know blind people productively using >>>> the Mac every day for their work, and I can give you several testimonials >>>> from former Windows users who will flat out tell you that Mac >>>> accessibility is superior to that in Windows hands down. I just had this >>>> conversation with a client who is a former JAWS user who was using Windows >>>> since 1994 and still uses Windows because he paid for a SMA. >>>> >>>> In any event, to assume Apple is done with accessibility or has done so to >>>> legally get by is a generally opinionated statement that has no factual or >>>> concrete evidence beyond personal belief. How far the Mac has come since >>>> Tiger, including Lion to Mountain Lion, is proof enough, and if it’s not >>>> satisfactory enough to you, that is your problem and not a general >>>> reflection of the state of accessibility among most blind Mac users. Is >>>> it perfect? Of course not. I can list the flaws as readily as anyone >>>> else, especially since I train folks to use the Mac every day. However, >>>> as I said, I can list just as many in Windows, if not more in some regard. >>>> Also, well, show me an operating system the blind can use with >>>> perfection. We can go on and on about our accessibility gripes about >>>> every operating system, but in many cases, the reality does not truly >>>> reflect our narrow world views of things. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Take Care >>>> >>>> John D. Panarese >>>> Director >>>> Mac for the Blind >>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >>>> >>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >>>> >>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >>>> >>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Chris, >>>>> >>>>> Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there >>>>> are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that >>>>> applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. >>>>> >>>>> The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it >>>>> is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, >>>>> more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) >>>>> have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really >>>>> shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that >>>>> some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want >>>>> longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. >>>>> >>>>> Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those >>>>> who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at >>>>> this stage. >>>>> >>>>> Dónal >>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac >>>>>> is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a >>>>>> productive tool for the blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. >>>>>> We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of >>>>>> mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article >>>>>> on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight >>>>>> update each time a new OS comes out. >>>>>> >>>>>> We need to keep making a noise and more of it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. >>>>>>> I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in >>>>>>> terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a >>>>>>> lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and >>>>>>> claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, >>>>>>> section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX >>>>>>> accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what >>>>>>> we have now is as good as it's going to get. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dónal >>>>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, "Chris Gilland" <ch...@clgproductions.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, >>>>>>>> and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug >>>>>>>> reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. >>>>>>>> In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in >>>>>>>> Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't >>>>>>>> legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got >>>>>>>> back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know >>>>>>>> about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way >>>>>>>> it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but >>>>>>>> I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen >>>>>>>> to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah k Alawami" >>>>>>>> <marri...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> To: "Mac OSX & iOS Accessibility" <mac-access@mac-access.net> >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I >>>>>>>> doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not >>>>>>>> ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. >>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory <joshkar...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This reminds me of humanware, LOL. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick >>>>>>>>> <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer >>>>>>>>>> care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled >>>>>>>>>> themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Does my sarcasm come across? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dónal >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (message starts) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in >>>>>>>>>> Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving >>>>>>>>>> accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards >>>>>>>>>> this goal. >>>>>>>>>> Apple Accessibility >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (message ends) >>>>>>>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>>>>>>> School of Computing, >>>>>>>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>>>>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>>>>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>>>>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>>>>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>>>>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>>>>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >>>>>>>>>> are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised >>>>>>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any >>>>>>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail >>>>>>>>>> in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. 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However, this should in no way replace >>>>>>>> your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor >>>>>>>> responsibility should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>>>> School of Computing, >>>>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are >>>>>>> intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised >>>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any >>>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. 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We assume neither liability nor responsibility >>>>>>> should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>> >>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>> >>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>> >>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>> School of Computing, >>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>> >>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are >>>>> intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, >>>>> distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly >>>>> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the >>>>> sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this >>>>> e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as >>>>> being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this >>>>> cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and >>>>> Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or >>>>> their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this >>>>> e-mail." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>> >>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>> >>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>> >>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>> >>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>> >>>> >>>> Take Care >>>> >>>> John D. Panarese >>>> Director >>>> Mac for the Blind >>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >>>> >>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >>>> >>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >>>> >>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>> >>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>> >>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>> >>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>>> unpredictable happen. >>>> >>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>> visiting the list website at: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>> >>> >>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>> >>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>> >>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>> >>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>> unpredictable happen. >>> >>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>> visiting the list website at: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>> >> >> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >> >> To reply to this post, please address your message to >> mac-access@mac-access.net >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at >> either the list's own dedicated web archive: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >> or at the public Mail Archive: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >> >> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that >> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >> unpredictable happen. >> >> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >> visiting the list website at: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >> > > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> > > To reply to this post, please address your message to > mac-access@mac-access.net > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at > either the list's own dedicated web archive: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> > or at the public Mail Archive: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. > Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> > > As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that > the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and > worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security > strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something > unpredictable happen. > > Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by > visiting the list website at: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> or at the public Mail Archive: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
