It's funny though. People are still doing tasks with spreadsheets and word processing with what is available. Again, you can be overly critical or you can be realistic about things. Where there is a will, there is a way. In a couple of months, this debate will probably have no merit anyway.
Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 22, 2013, at 2:27 PM, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > John, > > I am not negative, I just live in the real world. > > If you require very basic small spreadsheets, with voiceover quirks compared > to complex large Excel spreadsheets, then fine. A word processor offering > full Microsoft document support which is the industry standard? None of the > word processors you mention can't hold a torch to Microsoft Word and can't > even produce headings and tables which can be read by voiceover. Keynotes > accessibility is also below par, so Powerpoint is out of the question. Open > Office is also not even a viable option on the Mac. > > There are also no accessible WYSWYG HTML editors on the Mac which support VO, > you are stud with either stuck with applications for marking down for use > with a CMS, or basic RTF editors. > > The Mac does the basics, some of us users have more demanding requirement. > Is that a bad thing? > > All these tasks can be achieved if you have enough vision not to require > Voiceover, is it too much to ask for Voiceover users to expect the same level > of productivity as our sighted Mac users? I do not think I am being negative > at all. > > Chris > > On 22 Jul 2013, at 18:00, John Panarese <jpanar...@mac-access.net> wrote: > >> I still don't know what you mean that people can't use the Mac in a >> professional environment. I think this is strictly your opinion and not >> anything based on fact. There are at least a half dozen high end word >> processing applications, including iText, Pages Multi Markdown Composer. >> Additionally, there are two spreadsheet alternatives that can be used >> accessibly. As I said, I have trained people who use their Macs for >> business. To say VoiceOver is not on par with JAWS or a windows screen >> reader is a very narrow viewpoint. Yes, Tiger, Leopard and Snow Leopard, I >> could not have argued that pint, but not any more. I guess my experience as >> a trainer gives me a much wider perspective, but as was initially said, >> everyone is entitled to their opinions. I'm just glad there are a lot of >> people who don't see things in such a negative way. >> >> >> Take Care >> >> John D. Panarese >> Director >> Mac for the Blind >> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >> >> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >> >> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >> >> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 22, 2013, at 6:27 AM, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> John, >>> >>> Tiger was almost 9 years ago, that is a long time ago, so for the Mac in >>> 2013 still not being able to provide a fully accessible business level or >>> decent level education class word processing and spreadsheet solution is >>> not acceptable in my book. Also, I do not think Voiceover is on par with >>> JAWS or WindowEyes. Granted these products do cost extra and Voiceover is >>> built right in, but Apple need to get their core products to fully support >>> it. >>> >>> Don't get me wrong, I am a complete mac fan boy, but for anyone to think >>> the Mac with a screen reader can compete in the world of productivity is >>> deluded and taking the mac fan boy cool are to the extreme. >>> Voiceover needs to be more polished and so does Zoom. The Mac is a more >>> mature product than iOS, but at the core ios IS still Mac OS X but compiled >>> to run on a ARM processor instead. >>> >>> I think it has gone beyond us all kissing Apple's ass and being ever so >>> grateful for them building in a screen reader, they now need to make the >>> product more useful if it is going to be taken more serious. It really is >>> a shame that a third party has not developed their own screen reader for >>> the Mac which is able to take things to the next level for the professional. >>> >>> I guess you and I live in different worlds John and have different needs. >>> >>> I respect your opinion however and I am happy the Mac meets your needs. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> On 21 Jul 2013, at 17:01, John Panarese <jpanar...@mac-access.net> wrote: >>> >>>> You are comparing two different animals, Chris. I also think you are >>>> being a bit dismissive. Remember that iOS accessibility came very early >>>> in the game while accessibility with Mac OS X has been going on at the >>>> same time Apple has literally been rewriting all of their core >>>> applications. Of course iOS is going to seem like it's taken leaps and >>>> bounds forward with accessibility over the last few years. There have >>>> been several additions to VoiceOver on the Mac, but they don't measure up >>>> the same comparing them to basic iOS accessibility advances. At the same >>>> time, though, progress with Mac OS has continued and for those of use who >>>> remember Tiger, I think it's safe to say that Apple has definitely made >>>> the Mac just as viable as a Windows solution. I have no doubts that >>>> Mavericks will only improve accessibility and things will only go forward. >>>> >>>> >>>> Take Care >>>> >>>> John D. Panarese >>>> Director >>>> Mac for the Blind >>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >>>> >>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >>>> >>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >>>> >>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 21, 2013, at 9:25 AM, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> John, >>>>> >>>>> My reference to Mac OS X being half baked, was in comparison to iOS. >>>>> Voiceover has come on leaps and bounds on iOS since 2009. Has Voiceover >>>>> come on leaps and bounds on Mac OS X since 2009? There have been some >>>>> improvements yes, still numerous bugs and major missing features. >>>>> Probably the only major VO features since 2009 has been support for drag >>>>> and drop and additional voices. >>>>> >>>>> IS Mac better than Windows? out of the box, yes. narrator has a long way >>>>> to go still, but has also come on leaps and bounds since Windows 7. Is >>>>> Voiceover better or more advanced than JAWS? hell no. >>>>> >>>>> Ok Voiceover is integrated into the OS, but not much use if many >>>>> applications don't adhere to standards for VO to support, and these >>>>> applications include many from Apple too. >>>>> >>>>> In the real world, the Mac is fine for reading email, surfing the web, >>>>> using Skype, and chatting with friends or writing the odd blog. >>>>> >>>>> iWork is a joke with voiceover and yes I know some users have a relevant >>>>> level of success if you are prepared to jump through hoops. You can't >>>>> compare using iWork with voiceover and using JAWS or NVDA on Windows with >>>>> Microsoft Office. Nothing even comes close to it on the Mac in terms of >>>>> accessibility. VO can't even read what is exactly on the screen half the >>>>> time, it makes too many assumptions. >>>>> >>>>> To be productive I want to be able to use Dreamweaver, a decent word >>>>> processor including tables, and use complex spreadsheets, access share >>>>> point, use web development tools, edit MIDI data, read PDF documents that >>>>> also include their elements such as headings, tables and enter data >>>>> within form fields of a PDF. The Mac with voiceover struggles with all >>>>> of these tasks. So in my opinions it is not very productive in the world >>>>> of business. Voiceover can't even read tables or headings in documents. >>>>> >>>>> However, I still use my Mac on a daily basis as I do like the email >>>>> client, and using the rotor in Safari, despite some web pages causing VO >>>>> to crash and not being able to handle some pages correctly. >>>>> >>>>> I guess we'll see how committed Apple are to accessibility on the Mac >>>>> when the next release of iWork comes out eh? Very disappointed >>>>> accessibility had not been improved within Logic X, and I really hope VO >>>>> support is enhanced in both Pages and Numbers. I would like to see the >>>>> various bugs I have submitted be plugged also. Apple are quick to fix >>>>> bugs which do not relate to accessibility, and it seems the only time VO >>>>> gets an update or has a bug fixed is with each major OS update, which is >>>>> very frustrating. >>>>> >>>>> Apple have done very little to improve accessibility for low vision users >>>>> too. This is why AI Squared have had to release ZoomText for Mac, as >>>>> Apple's built in offerings are so poor. An accessible Office suite from >>>>> Microsoft and accessible products from Adobe such as Reader and Flash >>>>> would be welcome (Flash not as important these days though). In the >>>>> meantime, we can hardly point the finger at Microsoft and Adobe if Apple >>>>> can't even make all their software accessible. >>>>> >>>>> Those are the facts, and I have been a Mac user since 2000, but I admit >>>>> only as a blind user since 2010. >>>>> >>>>> I have not tested Maverick, so I might b very surprised and learn that it >>>>> is truly wonderful. Here's hoping eh? >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 19:28, John Panarese <jpanar...@mac-access.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> OK, maybe I am missing something here, but I am reading some of the most >>>>>> ridiculous and assumption ridden posts in this thread. How in the world >>>>>> can you say the Mac is half-baked? The Mac is just as accessible as >>>>>> Windows at this point, and for whatever weaknesses you can point out in >>>>>> OS X, I can equally find in Windows. I know blind people productively >>>>>> using the Mac every day for their work, and I can give you several >>>>>> testimonials from former Windows users who will flat out tell you that >>>>>> Mac accessibility is superior to that in Windows hands down. I just had >>>>>> this conversation with a client who is a former JAWS user who was using >>>>>> Windows since 1994 and still uses Windows because he paid for a SMA. >>>>>> >>>>>> In any event, to assume Apple is done with accessibility or has done so >>>>>> to legally get by is a generally opinionated statement that has no >>>>>> factual or concrete evidence beyond personal belief. How far the Mac >>>>>> has come since Tiger, including Lion to Mountain Lion, is proof enough, >>>>>> and if it’s not satisfactory enough to you, that is your problem and not >>>>>> a general reflection of the state of accessibility among most blind Mac >>>>>> users. Is it perfect? Of course not. I can list the flaws as readily >>>>>> as anyone else, especially since I train folks to use the Mac every day. >>>>>> However, as I said, I can list just as many in Windows, if not more in >>>>>> some regard. Also, well, show me an operating system the blind can use >>>>>> with perfection. We can go on and on about our accessibility gripes >>>>>> about every operating system, but in many cases, the reality does not >>>>>> truly reflect our narrow world views of things. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Take Care >>>>>> >>>>>> John D. Panarese >>>>>> Director >>>>>> Mac for the Blind >>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >>>>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >>>>>> >>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >>>>>> >>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >>>>>> >>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick >>>>>> <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there >>>>>>> are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that >>>>>>> applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, >>>>>>> it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility >>>>>>> and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this >>>>>>> list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really >>>>>>> shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that >>>>>>> some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want >>>>>>> longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those >>>>>>> who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at >>>>>>> this stage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dónal >>>>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the >>>>>>>> Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as >>>>>>>> a productive tool for the blind. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the >>>>>>>> pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention >>>>>>>> of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an >>>>>>>> article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get >>>>>>>> a slight update each time a new OS comes out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We need to keep making a noise and more of it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick >>>>>>>> <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Chris, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. >>>>>>>>> I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in >>>>>>>>> terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a >>>>>>>>> lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and >>>>>>>>> claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, >>>>>>>>> section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX >>>>>>>>> accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what >>>>>>>>> we have now is as good as it's going to get. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dónal >>>>>>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, "Chris Gilland" <ch...@clgproductions.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say >>>>>>>>>> this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported >>>>>>>>>> through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS >>>>>>>>>> and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things >>>>>>>>>> in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. >>>>>>>>>> Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the >>>>>>>>>> response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something >>>>>>>>>> to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are >>>>>>>>>> experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn >>>>>>>>>> how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a >>>>>>>>>> dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost >>>>>>>>>> ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Chris. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah k Alawami" >>>>>>>>>> <marri...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> To: "Mac OSX & iOS Accessibility" <mac-access@mac-access.net> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I >>>>>>>>>> doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have >>>>>>>>>> not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory <joshkar...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This reminds me of humanware, LOL. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick >>>>>>>>>>> <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer >>>>>>>>>>>> care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled >>>>>>>>>>>> themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Does my sarcasm come across? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dónal >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (message starts) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility >>>>>>>>>>>> in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving >>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards >>>>>>>>>>>> this goal. >>>>>>>>>>>> Apple Accessibility >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (message ends) >>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>>>>>>>>> School of Computing, >>>>>>>>>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>>>>>>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>>>>>>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>>>>>>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>>>>>>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>>>>>>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>>>>>>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential >>>>>>>>>>>> and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised >>>>>>>>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any >>>>>>>>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. 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However, this should in no way replace >>>>>>>>>>> your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor >>>>>>>>>>> responsibility should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically >>>>>>>>>>> by visiting the list website at: >>>>>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to >>>>>>>>>> ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, >>>>>>>>>> Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace >>>>>>>>>> your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor >>>>>>>>>> responsibility should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically >>>>>>>>>> by visiting the list website at: >>>>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to >>>>>>>>>> ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, >>>>>>>>>> Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace >>>>>>>>>> your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor >>>>>>>>>> responsibility should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically >>>>>>>>>> by visiting the list website at: >>>>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>>>>>> School of Computing, >>>>>>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>>>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>>>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>>>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>>>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>>>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>>>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >>>>>>>>> are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised >>>>>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any >>>>>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. 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However, this should in no way replace >>>>>>>>> your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor >>>>>>>>> responsibility should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to >>>>>>>> ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, >>>>>>>> Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace >>>>>>>> your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor >>>>>>>> responsibility should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>>>> School of Computing, >>>>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are >>>>>>> intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised >>>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any >>>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in >>>>>>> error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or >>>>>>> opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author >>>>>>> and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. >>>>>>> E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be >>>>>>> virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University >>>>>>> does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. >>>>>>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own >>>>>>> security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility >>>>>>> should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Take Care >>>>>> >>>>>> John D. Panarese >>>>>> Director >>>>>> Mac for the Blind >>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >>>>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >>>>>> >>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >>>>>> >>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >>>>>> >>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>> >>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>> >>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>> >>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>> >>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>> >>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>> >>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>> >>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>> >>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>> >>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>> >>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>>> unpredictable happen. >>>> >>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>> visiting the list website at: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>> >>> >>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>> >>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>> >>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>> >>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>> unpredictable happen. >>> >>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>> visiting the list website at: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>> >> >> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >> >> To reply to this post, please address your message to >> mac-access@mac-access.net >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at >> either the list's own dedicated web archive: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >> or at the public Mail Archive: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >> >> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that >> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >> unpredictable happen. >> >> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >> visiting the list website at: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >> > > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> > > To reply to this post, please address your message to > mac-access@mac-access.net > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at > either the list's own dedicated web archive: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> > or at the public Mail Archive: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. > Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> > > As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that > the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and > worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security > strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something > unpredictable happen. > > Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by > visiting the list website at: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> or at the public Mail Archive: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
