I hope you're right, Jerry.

   Bill


On Wednesday, June 8, 2005, at 12:33  AM, Jerry Yeager wrote:

> I forgot to put in the speculation part. Soooorrrryyyy!!!
>
> Teaming with IBM got Apple a lot of notice, especially after the 
> projects like the Virginia cluster were so successful. XServe and 
> Xraid showed they had a place in the corporate network computer room. 
> But only a place, not the entire room. the corporate buyer still 
> replaced machines in mass regularly, on schedule, with new critters 
> that "have the Intel inside" stickers and did begin to nod to the Mac 
> folks, but it has only been a nod.
> [Your market share numbers are a bit deceiving, home users with Macs 
> tend not to replace them every couple of quarters like the corporate 
> buyers do. 3% is actually a lot of new buyers with some replacers in 
> there.]
>
> Now with the ability to get serious attention from corporate buyers 
> who tend to influence home buyers that but what they use at the 
> office, Apple COULD make hay while the sun shines. (and yes still give 
> those that pine after PPC machines something to use as well).
>
> That was some of the speculation part.
>
>                       Jerry
>
> On Jun 08, 2005, at 12:03 AM, Jerry Yeager wrote:
>
>> But the safety is probably on ... (to continue your analogy).
>>
>> Consider the facts that have been presented to us.
>> 1)   Marklar is real rather than the stuff of "Apple legend and lore on 
>> the 'Net". It has been going on for 5 years. [Well okay, much longer 
>> than that if you count the years OS-X was being developed at NeXt 
>> where it was built totally for x86 general computers -- ones NeXt and 
>> now Apple could not controil the extra hardware being added on by 
>> builders.]
>> 2)   OS-X runs on Intel hardware now and was demonstrated to do so on a 
>> Pentium 4 machine. Developers can lease a P4 machine with OS-X on it 
>> now.
>> 3)   Except for Altivec based apps, most apps are supposed to be fairly 
>> easy to re-compile, especially Cocoa apps and X-code stuff. Altivec 
>> based apps will take slight to moderate work to translate to Intel 
>> architecture code.
>>
>> This means that motherboards and peripherals are also ready to go 
>> now. It sounds like if the need was there, Apple could have lots of 
>> machines on the shelves by September. So why the year to two year 
>> wait on the transition?
>>
>> Perhaps Mr. Jobs and that gang of wiley rascals in Cupertino are 
>> trying to open up some more options. Bring heat on IBM to produce the 
>> G5 and later chips they way they should be. Perhaps to make sure that 
>> Intel really can kick out high quality 64 bit dual core chips. 
>> Opterons and better perhaps? Maybe to give AMD time to gear up to 
>> meet the challenge (now that the idea of using more than the PPC 
>> processors is out there for the masses to digest).
>>
>> Certainly there is some room for speculation here.
>>
>>                      Jerry
>>
>>
>> On Jun 07, 2005, at 11:14 PM, Bill Holt wrote:
>>
>>> Well Henri, I could be wrong and hope that I am, but I think that 
>>> Apple finally, with this one, remembered to put the bullet in the 
>>> gun before putting the gun to its head.  Again, I would prefer to be 
>>> wrong.  But with the share of sales hovering in the 3% range, and 
>>> the sales that are going to be lost because of this, I think that 
>>> market share is likely to drop to the point that critical mass is 
>>> lost.  Heaven know, if you allow your life to be run by common 
>>> perceptions, you're in for a lot of disappointment.  But common 
>>> perception is the meat of the market-place, and if common perception 
>>> is that Apple can't hold more than a trivial share, common 
>>> perception will be that Apple's not to be taken seriously.
>>>
>>> I hate it, because except for the Gil years, Apple's been the source 
>>> of the best machines out there - when you factored in the OS.  My 
>>> PB5300 still serves me well.  Heck I'm about to replace the screen 
>>> on my Newton 2100 because it is so useful to me.  But my lust for 
>>> the duel G5 is dampened with apprehension ... it's not really an 
>>> orphan already, but it will suffer some of the pain.  My cad 
>>> software will not be optimized to take advantage of the power of 
>>> this unit.  That's a big deal.  And already, Filemaker Inc - wholly 
>>> owned by Apple - gives the Mac portion of its buyers second tier 
>>> treatment.  I say this because there are some critical functions 
>>> which have not worked on the Mac side since 7.0.0, and now that 
>>> 7.0.3 is out, they still don't work.  They've worked on the Windoze 
>>> side since day one ... and the situation is critical to my work to 
>>> the degree that I will probably have to rework all my marketing lit 
>>> and actually go with a Windoze server approach.  I can see it now.  
>>> Instead of boasting about the stability of UNIX and data security, 
>>> I'll have to write something like, "Well, we're not proud to use 
>>> Windoze, because it sucks, but at least it works."
>>>
>>> Today I had to make a trip to the office supply place and Breck and 
>>> Dutchmans, whatever it's name is, and while I was there I looked at 
>>> the line of notebooks they had on display.  This was not lust, it 
>>> was looking in the same way you can't help but look at an automobile 
>>> accident as you drive by.  Some of the units gave the impression of 
>>> being of reasonable quality construction - a minority - but they 
>>> were all running the current Windoze system ... and it surely does 
>>> suck.  From the moment I went for the "Start" button (XP - what an 
>>> idiotic interface design!) I was reminded of how distinctly 
>>> unresponsive it is (slow menu pops and button responses) and that it 
>>> is actually ugly, in a 1957 Desoto sort of way.  The only marriage 
>>> of form and function is one of convenience, apparently made with the 
>>> help of a shotgun.
>>>
>>> And finally, and I"ll shut up after this, it's so frustrating for 
>>> Apple to miss a real chance penetrate further into the market with 
>>> this stupidity.  As best as I can tell, it will be at least a year 
>>> or two before the Intel chips can match current cost-performance of 
>>> the PPC series.  Sure, Intel has promised great things in the 
>>> future, but I'm not overly impressed by their history of delivery.  
>>> From what I've read, the AMD dual core is vastly superior to the 
>>> Intel version, which was apparently hurried for the specific reason 
>>> of creating the perception that they were in the lead ... that 
>>> perception thing again.  So, instead of taking advantage of the 
>>> opportunity that M$ has presented with it's laggardly development 
>>> schedule for the next generation of WinCrap, Apple ignores that very 
>>> large opportunity and aligns itself to compete with companies that 
>>> can eat it's lunch by selling things that look as good as Apple's 
>>> machines, to the non-critical eye, for less money.  And since some 
>>> of the security problems on the Windoze side are due to the Intel 
>>> architecture 
>>> (http://www.cio-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=12300002FPRC), in 
>>> addition to the glitchy OS, I think switching to Intel is roughly 
>>> equivalent to hiring a typhoid carrier to cook your meals.
>>>
>>>   Bill Holt
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 08:34  PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/6/05, Bill Holt <billholt at iglou.com> wrote:
>>>>> As a dedicated user and developer since March 1984, who's promoted 
>>>>> the
>>>>> platform at almost every opportunity, I hate it that the following 
>>>>> song
>>>>> is what comes to mind:  Our D  I  V  O  R  C  E, become final 
>>>>> today ....
>>>>
>>>> Mine was a month ago, the powerbook was finally sent to hibernate in
>>>> the basement a week ago. I write this on a dual Win/Lin cheapie Dell
>>>> laptop.
>>>>
>>>>> My current feeling is that it would be too embarrassing to 
>>>>> continue the
>>>>> "relationship" and that I'll just be a user of convenience.  I
>>>>> anticipate embracing the lukewarm, moldy smell of platform 
>>>>> neutrality.
>>>>
>>>> I got tired of the other half in the relationship taking advantage 
>>>> of me.
>>>>
>>>> That said, Apple make the best laptops out there. IBM were next, but
>>>> they've sold the business and I'm not confident the Thinkpad will 
>>>> be a
>>>> class act in 2 years when I buy a replacement to my 4 year old
>>>> powerbook (the Dell is a 2 or 3 year old stopgap).
>>>>
>>>> If I could triple boot an Apple (OS X, Win XP and x86 Linux), then I
>>>> would have the perfect machine. The biggest problems with that idea
>>>> are:
>>>>
>>>> a) One-button mouse. Windows/SuSE Linux on a Powerbook will be 
>>>> painful
>>>> unless Apple start shipping two button laptops. Three button with a
>>>> scroll-wheel would be best.
>>>>
>>>> b) Only Apple machines are likely to run OS X. I can't see Apple
>>>> supporting all the Intel hardware out there, it'll just be a small
>>>> subset. You'll either buy an Apple, or you'll choose your bits very
>>>> carefully. That said, the open-darwin project means that some things
>>>> (network cards, hard-drives) will be well supported. Graphics cards
>>>> (for full OS X features) and wireless would be my main worries,
>>>> especially for a laptop.
>>>>
>>>> I've also heard that there are likely to be differences at the BIOS
>>>> level on the machine, no idea if that would be true.
>>>>
>>>> Still, a triple-boot machine would be very nice.
>>>>
>>>> Hen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> | The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will
>>>> | be July 26. The LCS Web page is <http://www.kymac.org>.
>>>> | List posting address: <mailto:macgroup at erdos.math.louisville.edu>
>>>> | List Web page: <http://erdos.math.louisville.edu/macgroup>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> | The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will
>>> | be July 26. The LCS Web page is <http://www.kymac.org>.
>>> | List posting address: <mailto:macgroup at erdos.math.louisville.edu>
>>> | List Web page: <http://erdos.math.louisville.edu/macgroup>
>>>
>>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Someday, I will come up with a clever signature line. I am not sure 
>> if I will use it or not, but I will come up with one.
>>
>>
>>
>> | The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will
>> | be July 26. The LCS Web page is <http://www.kymac.org>.
>> | List posting address: <mailto:macgroup at erdos.math.louisville.edu>
>> | List Web page: <http://erdos.math.louisville.edu/macgroup>
>>
>>
> -----------------------------------
> Someday, I will come up with a clever signature line. I am not sure if 
> I will use it or not, but I will come up with one.
>
>
>
> | The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will
> | be July 26. The LCS Web page is <http://www.kymac.org>.
> | List posting address: <mailto:macgroup at erdos.math.louisville.edu>
> | List Web page: <http://erdos.math.louisville.edu/macgroup>
>



| The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will
| be July 26. The LCS Web page is <http://www.kymac.org>.
| List posting address: <mailto:macgroup at erdos.math.louisville.edu>
| List Web page: <http://erdos.math.louisville.edu/macgroup>

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