I believe NFB is working with all of these companies to encourage improved accessibility. You are just hearing about Apple because of a news article.
On 7/13/14, David Chittenden <[email protected]> wrote: > Correct, until Apple released VoiceOver on the iPhone 3GS in 2009, it was > well-known, and well-researched, that blind people would not be able to use > a touchscreen device the same way sighted people do. In fact, Google, in > conjunction with a major university, approached Apple in 2008 with a > proposal for making a tactile overlay that could be used by the blind with > an iPhone if Apple would put some sort of speech feedback in the iPhone. > Since Apple already had VO developed and was merely waiting for the iPhone > with the necessary processing power to become ready, they rebuffed Google > with no explanations. Note: I have read a few of these published academic > studies. They are available through university library databases. > > David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA > Email: [email protected] > Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 14 Jul 2014, at 13:49, Joanne Chua <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> It is still doesn't discount the fact that NFB is picking Apple from >> the rest o the bunsh. If NFB is so interested in promoting >> accessibility across all platform, why not Microsoft? Why not Google? >> Why target purely at Apple? >> >> So, yes, is that a punishment for Apple from NFB because Apple has >> been doing so much for the blind community? Or, is that because NFB >> got some other deals with some other company, like Microsoft or >> Freedom Scientific that may favouring them financially by >> promoting/selling their products, so, is okay to target the single >> company that they might not able to gain something from? >> >> If NFB is really looking at the interest of blind people, and their >> family, won't it be more useful to target other company like Google, >> with their less than desirable Androy platform than with Apple? >> >> My point still stand, why single out and targeting a company, when >> there are numbers of company that doesn't do as well as Apple. >> >> Also, i think NFB have no rights to be the big man, to say, "oh, >> because we do this, look now, we are doing the world hell lots of >> favour for the blind." They have no rights, and shouldn't be givin >> such rights as well. >> >> I'm sure VO happen is not because some NFB big guy went to make deals >> with Apple, and make Apple have that sense of responsibility to have >> VO available on their products. If NFB is that influencial in the >> globally, the "world" will be much more accessible than what it is >> now. >> >> >> >>> On 14/07/2014, Marianne Denning <[email protected]> wrote: >>> You do bring up an interesting point. I don't think your analogy is >>> too good but Apple is doing a great job. I don't believe NFB is >>> punishing Apple. According to what I read, NFB is trying to work with >>> Apple to increase the number of accessible apps. One example is the >>> Microsoft suite of products. There may be times when we need to or >>> want to use a Microsoft product on the Mac but cannot since Microsoft >>> doesn't have an accessible app. Apple puts the information out there >>> on how to make apps voiceover friendly and many companies don't want >>> to or don't understand the importance of voiceover accessibility. The >>> president of NFB wants to work with Apple. He is not against Apple >>> products in any way and is pleased with their level of commitment. >>> Does that mean we need to be happy with what we have even though there >>> are still many apps that are not accessible? If it improves >>> accessibility to voiceover users in the U.S., it is accessible to >>> voiceover users around the world. Please read the blog he posted on >>> this subject. >>> >>> If you don't know anything about NFB or ACB, they are both >>> organizations of blind people and their families. They want to >>> promote independence for people who are blind and visually impaired. >>> Both organizations take positions I don't agree with but when we work >>> together as a group it improves independence for all blind and >>> visually impaired people. I hope there are similar organizations in >>> other countries. >>> >>>> On 7/13/14, Joanne Chua <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> So Erik, what you are saying is that, when your kid performing very, >>>> very well at school, always gets 90 points in every exams, while >>>> the rest is hobbing around 30 points, rarely pass the test, is okay >>>> for the school principle to point your kid out in public, and punish >>>> your kid by asking him to perform 100% better, and is okay for the >>>> rest of the school kids staying behind on 30 points mark? >>>> >>>> Or, we got double standard because its NFB, and because its Apple, so, >>>> hey, who cares about other company, other organization, or even other >>>> blind people that is not even in America, but could pretty well effect >>>> by what so call big brother NFB does or doesn't in their policy making >>>> process? >>>> >>>> Jees, if i'm one of the school kid, i'm very happy to stay on 30% >>>> points mark, and not performing well, because, look what happen when >>>> you are on 90%? you got name, you got shame, you got single it out. >>>> >>>> I wonder, is this the pressure and the fear from other company, say >>>> Freedom Scientific to NFB. When Apple products weren't accessible, >>>> people rely on conventional screen reader, conventional braille note >>>> taker to have a life. But now, because of Apple, thanks for Apple, >>>> blind people have this sudden choice, not rely on an external screen >>>> reader, and still able to have a life, a well inform life, a better >>>> life than ever before in the history. Which also means, blind people >>>> are more than likely to rely on their own, starting to do self >>>> advocacy more than ever before, and left those organizations like NFB >>>> behind in the future. >>>> >>>>> On 14/07/2014, erik burggraaf <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> Naming a company does not necessarily imply targeting them. There are >>>>> sound >>>>> economic reasons for starting with apple. >>>>> 1, they are the lear in the field of mobile accessibility right now. >>>>> Lots >>>>> of players, only one leader, ...apple, a p p l e. >>>>> 2, Apple products are used daily in classrooms from at least grade two >>>>> right >>>>> through university. They are prominat in government. This isn't >>>>> true >>>>> of >>>>> any other company. Blackberry has a lot of government market share >>>>> but >>>>> nothing in education, and almost nothing in employment. Android may >>>>> be >>>>> bigger in employment over all than apple, but androide started much >>>>> later >>>>> than apple and has only one truely comparable accessibility feature >>>>> namely >>>>> talkback A lot of disabled people who would get an android for work as >>>>> a >>>>> matter of course are getting apple because the accessibility suite is >>>>> frankly more robust than that on android. >>>>> >>>>> OK, I think the discussions should include android. I also think they >>>>> should include disability advocacy groups besides the blind. But I >>>>> don't >>>>> see any one targeting anyone else here. Past experience >>>>> not-with-standing, >>>>> this idea that the NFB will somehow bombard apple into enforcing >>>>> accessibility standards is ludacris. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at 5 >>>>> pm! >>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click >>>>> here >>>>> for >>>>> detales. >>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2014-07-13, at 6:12 PM, David Chittenden <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> When a resolution singles out one specific company by name, this >>>>>> means >>>>>> that one specific company is being targeted! If the resolution was >>>>>> about >>>>>> multiple companies being approached for increasing accessibility, it >>>>>> would >>>>>> have said so. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>> Email: [email protected] >>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 10:03, Marianne Denning <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also think it makes sense to push the one that is most accessible. >>>>>>> Some of the others make it very clear they just don't care. Apple >>>>>>> believes we are a market. Apple, like all other companies, is about >>>>>>> making a profit. >>>>>>> We give them our loyalty but ask them to do more. They have chosen >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> tightly control all apps by requiring us to get them from the app >>>>>>> store so they need to work to be as accessible as possible. I >>>>>>> believe >>>>>>> more pressure needs to be put on other companies too so come up with >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> resolution to address that in whatever organization you are active >>>>>>> with. We, as individuals, benefit from working together as a group. >>>>>>> The viphone list is a great example of working together as a group >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> this group has gotten out good information to developers who create >>>>>>> accessible apps. Many members of this group are members of a >>>>>>> national >>>>>>> organization too so work through that organization to influence >>>>>>> companies. >>>>>>>> On 7/13/14, erik burggraaf <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> I didn't read anything about targetting in the resolution. Show me >>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>> that line is please? >>>>>>>> Apple has the broadest user base in the access technology market >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> comes to mobile. Apple is also well recognized in education, >>>>>>>> government, >>>>>>>> and employment sectors. Samsung is a great accessibility company. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> see why this resolution shouldn't apply to them except that they >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> their own app distrobution model. Android is on the rise and has a >>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>> following and I think this conversation should be taken to them. >>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>> fact, >>>>>>>> so it is. Ensuring that apps offer a minimum level of >>>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>>> benefits all disability groups, not just ours. I think its a >>>>>>>> dialog >>>>>>>> that a >>>>>>>> lot of disability organizations should be having with apple and >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> eachother. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't see apple being targetted here, and I don't see apple being >>>>>>>> intimidated even if they did feel targetted. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at >>>>>>>> 5 >>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click >>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> detales. >>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-13, at 3:44 PM, David Chittenden >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe it is because the NFB is specifically targeting only the >>>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>>> that is doing the most for accessibility and ignoring the >>>>>>>>> companies >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> should be targeting, such as Microsoft, Google, Sony, Panasonic, >>>>>>>>> Cisco, >>>>>>>>> Sharp, Samsung, and so forth. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You do not encourage accessibility by targeting the most >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> company. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>> Email: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 4:13, erik burggraaf <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Isn't the very point of the NFB to advocate? IE, make change for >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> better? IE, make companies like apple do things they wouldn't >>>>>>>>>> normally >>>>>>>>>> do by the use of resolution, discussion, policy positions and >>>>>>>>>> demonstration of the user demand for such change? THe NFB seems >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> be doing what an advocacy organization does. I don't understand >>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>> one has a problem with this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> 5 >>>>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! >>>>>>>>>> Click >>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>> for detales. >>>>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-12, at 11:36 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" >>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm writing this from a sock-footed perspective, so take that >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> it's worth... >>>>>>>>>>> None of this is "hate" directed at NFB. I don't agree with their >>>>>>>>>>> philosophy. I don't believe that one organization should have >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>> to "resolve" to make a company like Apple do anything. This >>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> matter of ACB vs NFB or AFB or anything, it's a matter of what I >>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>> is right. I don't believe that an organization should speak for >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> entire blind population. Further, I don't believe that any >>>>>>>>>>> organization >>>>>>>>>>> should be so arrogant as to award a company, then expect them to >>>>>>>>>>> show >>>>>>>>>>> up, as if it's an honor to receive that award. I don't >>>>>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>> NFB thinks it has the right to force this on anyone, much less >>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>> they're only targetting apple for this. I also don't understand >>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> they hope to accomplish. Sure there are unaccessible apps out >>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> that number is dwindling. Advocacy and work with the developers >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> apps is generally plenty to make people want to make their >>>>>>>>>>> applications >>>>>>>>>>> accessible. Not always, but enforcing accessibility guidelines >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> forcing an entire OS to conform to those guidelines when it >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> probably mean changing the user experience for everyone else is >>>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>> ludicrous. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You brought up the 2009 article: why should we thank NFB for >>>>>>>>>>> appologising for something they never should have published in >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>> place? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure where this will lead. I think that work with apple >>>>>>>>>>> developers and perhaps work under the hood to the native >>>>>>>>>>> controls >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> make more of a difference. Perhaps developers can choose to have >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> checks enabled, and these checks can insure that specific labels >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> set, etc etc which would generally make the app more accessible. >>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> also up to the developer, but it would greatly help I think in >>>>>>>>>>> targetting exactly what needs to be done. >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 11:15 PM, Ray Foret Jr wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am changing the subject because I think it's high time I said >>>>>>>>>>>> something. I well remember how many Mac users strongly >>>>>>>>>>>> criticized >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> NFB for their June 2009 Braille Monitor article on Voice Over. >>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>> criticism was fully justified: let there be no doubt about >>>>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>>> the other hand, how many Mac users gave the NFB credit for the >>>>>>>>>>>> retraction printed in the December 2009 Monitor article? Not >>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> seem to recall. Look, it's your business whether or not you >>>>>>>>>>>> hate >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> NFB and I cannot change your minds about that. I'm not even >>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> try. But, frankly, I think it's very shallow minded to have >>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>>>>>>>>> of hatred controlling the issue when what we need to do is have >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> balanced and mature conversation. Hate us all you want: but, >>>>>>>>>>>> remember, there are NFB members who use Macs and iPHones and >>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>> Apple products too. For what it may be worth, I do not hate >>>>>>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB. Why should I? They've never done anything to me to >>>>>>>>>>>> merit >>>>>>>>>>>> such hatred. I would add this. My own state, Louisiana, voted >>>>>>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>>> the resolution at the convention this year. This somewhat took >>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>> surprise. I did not expect that to happen, but it did. Look, >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>> are NFB members and who use our Apple products love them as >>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> do. I know that, for myself, I will never touch windows again. >>>>>>>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>>>>>>> sooner be without a computer totally than to do that. I do not >>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>> it is at all reasonable to ask the current generation to bear >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> hatreds of the past. 1961 is long gone: as the hatred of >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>>>>> should also be. Condemn what I say if you wish: (That's your >>>>>>>>>>>> right.): >>>>>>>>>>>> but, just bear in mind that the only one being effected by your >>>>>>>>>>>> hatred >>>>>>>>>>>> of people like me is yourself. I don't hate you. You see, >>>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>>> frightfully simple. Those who hate you don't win unless you >>>>>>>>>>>> hate >>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>> Have what ever feelings you choose towards me and what I say: >>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>> bear in mind that we really need to rise above such things and >>>>>>>>>>>> continue >>>>>>>>>>>> to help each other with Apple product issues. After all, is >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> the principal purpose of this list? When I first joined, I >>>>>>>>>>>> received >>>>>>>>>>>> much good help from the members of this list. I would hate to >>>>>>>>>>>> depart >>>>>>>>>>>> from this list over feelings of bitterness and hatred with >>>>>>>>>>>> respect >>>>>>>>>>>> either to the ACB or NFB. No. I cannot change how you feel: >>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>> frankly, I'd prefer a gentler tone. >>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>> the Constantly Barefooted Ray, Still a very happy Mac and >>>>>>>>>>>> iphone >>>>>>>>>>>> user! >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility for >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> blind built-in! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:57 PM, David Chittenden >>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is probably more like, NFB attempted to dialogue with >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuffed NFB, like Apple rebuffs any organization doing >>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>> similar. NFB passes a resolution which they can then take back >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple and say, See, the blind are behind us because we are the >>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>> and this resolution was passed at our convention, so you >>>>>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>> to dialogue with us. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What will be the result? Apple will again rebuff NFB, just >>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuffs any organization attempting such an approach. NFB may >>>>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>>>> become in-sensed again and we will see some form of tantrum >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB. >>>>>>>>>>>>> As I recall, when Apple did not send an official >>>>>>>>>>>>> representative >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>>>>> National Convention to receive the awards NFB gave Apple, a >>>>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>>>> months >>>>>>>>>>>>> later articles appeared in the Braille Monitor proving how >>>>>>>>>>>>> horrible >>>>>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver was on the Mac. Yes, I suspect NFB will do something >>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> idiotic this time when their scheme does not work yet again. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>>>>> Email: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 13:57, Tristan <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel the need to point out this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This gives me a largely new prospective on this; I was really >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclined >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to agree with everyone's opinions on this at first, but it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> looks like they're trying to work with, and not threaten >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> core of the resolution. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this link has been posted prior, I apologize, but thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>> share. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> While I do think it's an unnecessary step, it does not look >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> slap in the face to apple nor a step backwards. It's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally wouldn't care about and probably wouldn't pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attention >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I'm comfortable with the way apps are handled on both >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iOS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/14, Karen Lewellen <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot imagine it being about anything else but nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange for building in limitations. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Granted I make no secret of choosing my own dictionary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But why on earth in the 21st century is anyone still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worshiping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> altar anyway? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So they pass a resolution...and? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only reason apple feels they must entertain them, is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers do not indicate they have minds imaginations and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their own. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bunch of people gave this organization power, those same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who BTW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have within themselves the ability to write their own >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictionaries >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness and anything else, can tell the nfb they have out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grown >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need for such a body anymore. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I simply do not understand why one conformity is exchanged >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another, one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person's ideas of limitations exchanged for those the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mindset. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I fully agree. It really does feel like we're slapping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forcing them to conform. I really really hope this doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to create a huge mess and totally redefine apps. Not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible but that really is fine with me; usually I can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is. It's what happens when you use anything, really. My >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money based: how much money will NFB get for consulting for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this, and secondly how is this trash going to redefine apps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not going to be all that hard for NFB to use their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into IOS/apps that don't need to be there, force things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 9:25 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me see if I understand this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple who has built in innovation on its own must discuss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to now limit that innovation to fit the nfb's one size >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fits >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of blindness? as in all blind people are interchangeable, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only source to tell you how to find a plug and play >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which you measure what works for them...all 400 plus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> million >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder how much money they plan on extorting for this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not only should it be a blanket resolution, BTW android >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most popular in use now according to annual surveys, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should involve many organizations, and a group of apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not members of a consumer organization whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The very suggestion that a single body is in a position to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speak >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> child born of women who happens to have the label blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attached >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a stereotypes that really needs to end. otherwise the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is the rich experience of redefining blindness is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the millions who need not buy the nfb line to live >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusively. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does the nfb not spend its energy training software >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their one size fits all blindness box? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many companies besides Apple would get the benefits that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just my take, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Pamela Francis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I personally am not in favor of this resolution; not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want accessibility. Apple took the lead in making its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible without government or organizational >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the other hand, allowed third-party vendors to do its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility. Google, though it has come along way, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to adhere to its own standards unless it is pressed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there was a resolution to be had, it should've been a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blanket >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution for all companies dealing with accessibility. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Picking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple, is as if we as a blind community are slapping it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given that it has continued its efforts to remain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand the need for utilitarian apps such as maps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notes, lists, etc. to remain accessible as they are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in normal life. However, just to use as an example I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need Angry Birds to be accessible for my benefit nor do I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> threatened to be kicked from the app store due to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sake of millions of people who enjoy it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As we continue to strive for accessibility in all areas, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bully to the company that went out of its way to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible from the beginning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We also do not need to be put into a societal box >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allowing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manufacturers, appliance manufacturers, and the general >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that all we are capable of is operating an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cusp of choice. We have fought for choice for a long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> type >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a resolution makes us look militant and ungrateful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fair for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one company is fair for all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pam Francis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:28 AM, Terje Strømberg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The NFB Resolution is very important for all blind and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> low >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vision >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over the world. We all want accessible digital future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A link to a comment from the president in NFB: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fool; he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a >>>>>>>>>>> fool; >>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>>>>>> (513) 607-6053 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups >>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send >>>>>> an >>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>> (513) 607-6053 >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Marianne Denning, TVI, MA Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired (513) 607-6053 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
