So Erik, what you are saying is that, when your kid performing very,
very well at school, always gets 90 points in every exams, while
the rest is hobbing around 30 points, rarely pass the test, is okay
for the school principle to point your kid out in public, and punish
your kid by asking him to perform 100% better, and is okay for the
rest of the school kids staying behind on 30 points mark?
Or, we got double standard because its NFB, and because its Apple, so,
hey, who cares about other company, other organization, or even other
blind people that is not even in America, but could pretty well effect
by what so call big brother NFB does or doesn't in their policy making
process?
Jees, if i'm one of the school kid, i'm very happy to stay on 30%
points mark, and not performing well, because, look what happen when
you are on 90%? you got name, you got shame, you got single it out.
I wonder, is this the pressure and the fear from other company, say
Freedom Scientific to NFB. When Apple products weren't accessible,
people rely on conventional screen reader, conventional braille note
taker to have a life. But now, because of Apple, thanks for Apple,
blind people have this sudden choice, not rely on an external screen
reader, and still able to have a life, a well inform life, a better
life than ever before in the history. Which also means, blind people
are more than likely to rely on their own, starting to do self
advocacy more than ever before, and left those organizations like NFB
behind in the future.
On 14/07/2014, erik burggraaf <[email protected]> wrote:
Naming a company does not necessarily imply targeting them. There are
sound
economic reasons for starting with apple.
1, they are the lear in the field of mobile accessibility right now.
Lots
of players, only one leader, ...apple, a p p l e.
2, Apple products are used daily in classrooms from at least grade two
right
through university. They are prominat in government. This isn't
true
of
any other company. Blackberry has a lot of government market share
but
nothing in education, and almost nothing in employment. Android may
be
bigger in employment over all than apple, but androide started much
later
than apple and has only one truely comparable accessibility feature
namely
talkback A lot of disabled people who would get an android for work as
a
matter of course are getting apple because the accessibility suite is
frankly more robust than that on android.
OK, I think the discussions should include android. I also think they
should include disability advocacy groups besides the blind. But I
don't
see any one targeting anyone else here. Past experience
not-with-standing,
this idea that the NFB will somehow bombard apple into enforcing
accessibility standards is ludacris.
Best,
Erik Burggraaf
The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at 5
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On 2014-07-13, at 6:12 PM, David Chittenden <[email protected]>
wrote:
When a resolution singles out one specific company by name, this
means
that one specific company is being targeted! If the resolution was
about
multiple companies being approached for increasing accessibility, it
would
have said so.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: [email protected]
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 14 Jul 2014, at 10:03, Marianne Denning <[email protected]>
wrote:
I also think it makes sense to push the one that is most accessible.
Some of the others make it very clear they just don't care. Apple
believes we are a market. Apple, like all other companies, is about
making a profit.
We give them our loyalty but ask them to do more. They have chosen
to
tightly control all apps by requiring us to get them from the app
store so they need to work to be as accessible as possible. I
believe
more pressure needs to be put on other companies too so come up with
a
resolution to address that in whatever organization you are active
with. We, as individuals, benefit from working together as a group.
The viphone list is a great example of working together as a group
and
this group has gotten out good information to developers who create
accessible apps. Many members of this group are members of a
national
organization too so work through that organization to influence
companies.
On 7/13/14, erik burggraaf <[email protected]> wrote:
I didn't read anything about targetting in the resolution. Show me
where
that line is please?
Apple has the broadest user base in the access technology market
when
it
comes to mobile. Apple is also well recognized in education,
government,
and employment sectors. Samsung is a great accessibility company.
I
don't
see why this resolution shouldn't apply to them except that they
don't
have
their own app distrobution model. Android is on the rise and has a
good
following and I think this conversation should be taken to them.
In
fact,
so it is. Ensuring that apps offer a minimum level of
accessibility
benefits all disability groups, not just ours. I think its a
dialog
that a
lot of disability organizations should be having with apple and
with
eachother.
I don't see apple being targetted here, and I don't see apple being
intimidated even if they did feel targetted.
Best,
Erik Burggraaf
The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at
5
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The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click
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On 2014-07-13, at 3:44 PM, David Chittenden
<[email protected]>
wrote:
Maybe it is because the NFB is specifically targeting only the
company
that is doing the most for accessibility and ignoring the
companies
they
should be targeting, such as Microsoft, Google, Sony, Panasonic,
Cisco,
Sharp, Samsung, and so forth.
You do not encourage accessibility by targeting the most
accessible
company.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: [email protected]
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 14 Jul 2014, at 4:13, erik burggraaf <[email protected]>
wrote:
Isn't the very point of the NFB to advocate? IE, make change for
the
better? IE, make companies like apple do things they wouldn't
normally
do by the use of resolution, discussion, policy positions and
demonstration of the user demand for such change? THe NFB seems
to
me
to
be doing what an advocacy organization does. I don't understand
why
any
one has a problem with this.
Best,
Erik Burggraaf
The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh
at
5
pm!
The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win!
Click
here
for detales.
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On 2014-07-12, at 11:36 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler"
<[email protected]>
wrote:
I'm writing this from a sock-footed perspective, so take that
for
what
it's worth...
None of this is "hate" directed at NFB. I don't agree with their
philosophy. I don't believe that one organization should have
the
power
to "resolve" to make a company like Apple do anything. This
isn't
a
matter of ACB vs NFB or AFB or anything, it's a matter of what I
believe
is right. I don't believe that an organization should speak for
the
entire blind population. Further, I don't believe that any
organization
should be so arrogant as to award a company, then expect them to
show
up, as if it's an honor to receive that award. I don't
understand
how
NFB thinks it has the right to force this on anyone, much less
why
they're only targetting apple for this. I also don't understand
what
they hope to accomplish. Sure there are unaccessible apps out
there,
but
that number is dwindling. Advocacy and work with the developers
of
the
apps is generally plenty to make people want to make their
applications
accessible. Not always, but enforcing accessibility guidelines
and
forcing an entire OS to conform to those guidelines when it
would
probably mean changing the user experience for everyone else is
also
ludicrous.
You brought up the 2009 article: why should we thank NFB for
appologising for something they never should have published in
the
first
place?
I'm not sure where this will lead. I think that work with apple
developers and perhaps work under the hood to the native
controls
would
make more of a difference. Perhaps developers can choose to have
these
checks enabled, and these checks can insure that specific labels
are
set, etc etc which would generally make the app more accessible.
This
is
also up to the developer, but it would greatly help I think in
targetting exactly what needs to be done.
On 7/12/2014 11:15 PM, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
Okay.
I am changing the subject because I think it's high time I said
something. I well remember how many Mac users strongly
criticized
the
NFB for their June 2009 Braille Monitor article on Voice Over.
That
criticism was fully justified: let there be no doubt about
that.
On
the other hand, how many Mac users gave the NFB credit for the
retraction printed in the December 2009 Monitor article? Not
many
I
seem to recall. Look, it's your business whether or not you
hate
the
NFB and I cannot change your minds about that. I'm not even
going
to
try. But, frankly, I think it's very shallow minded to have
this
kind
of hatred controlling the issue when what we need to do is have
a
balanced and mature conversation. Hate us all you want: but,
remember, there are NFB members who use Macs and iPHones and
other
Apple products too. For what it may be worth, I do not hate
anyone
in
the ACB. Why should I? They've never done anything to me to
merit
such hatred. I would add this. My own state, Louisiana, voted
against
the resolution at the convention this year. This somewhat took
me
by
surprise. I did not expect that to happen, but it did. Look,
we
who
are NFB members and who use our Apple products love them as
much
as
you
do. I know that, for myself, I will never touch windows again.
I'd
sooner be without a computer totally than to do that. I do not
believe
it is at all reasonable to ask the current generation to bear
the
hatreds of the past. 1961 is long gone: as the hatred of
those
days
should also be. Condemn what I say if you wish: (That's your
right.):
but, just bear in mind that the only one being effected by your
hatred
of people like me is yourself. I don't hate you. You see,
it's
frightfully simple. Those who hate you don't win unless you
hate
them.
Have what ever feelings you choose towards me and what I say:
but,
bear in mind that we really need to rise above such things and
continue
to help each other with Apple product issues. After all, is
that
not
the principal purpose of this list? When I first joined, I
received
much good help from the members of this list. I would hate to
depart
from this list over feelings of bitterness and hatred with
respect
either to the ACB or NFB. No. I cannot change how you feel:
but,
frankly, I'd prefer a gentler tone.
Sincerely,
the Constantly Barefooted Ray, Still a very happy Mac and
iphone
user!
Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility for
the
blind built-in!
On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:57 PM, David Chittenden
<[email protected]>
wrote:
It is probably more like, NFB attempted to dialogue with
Apple.
Apple
rebuffed NFB, like Apple rebuffs any organization doing
something
similar. NFB passes a resolution which they can then take back
to
Apple and say, See, the blind are behind us because we are the
blind
and this resolution was passed at our convention, so you
really
need
to dialogue with us.
What will be the result? Apple will again rebuff NFB, just
like
Apple
rebuffs any organization attempting such an approach. NFB may
well
become in-sensed again and we will see some form of tantrum
from
NFB.
As I recall, when Apple did not send an official
representative
to
NFB
National Convention to receive the awards NFB gave Apple, a
few
months
later articles appeared in the Braille Monitor proving how
horrible
VoiceOver was on the Mac. Yes, I suspect NFB will do something
just
as
idiotic this time when their scheme does not work yet again.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: [email protected]
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Jul 2014, at 13:57, Tristan <[email protected]>
wrote:
I feel the need to point out this article:
https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12
This gives me a largely new prospective on this; I was really
inclined
to agree with everyone's opinions on this at first, but it
honestly
looks like they're trying to work with, and not threaten
Apple
at
the
core of the resolution.
If this link has been posted prior, I apologize, but thought
I'd
share.
While I do think it's an unnecessary step, it does not look
like
a
slap in the face to apple nor a step backwards. It's
something
that
I
personally wouldn't care about and probably wouldn't pay
attention
to,
because I'm comfortable with the way apps are handled on both
Mac
and
iOS.
On 7/12/14, Karen Lewellen <[email protected]> wrote:
I cannot imagine it being about anything else but nfb
getting
money
in
exchange for building in limitations.
Granted I make no secret of choosing my own dictionary.
But why on earth in the 21st century is anyone still
worshiping
at
the nfb
altar anyway?
So they pass a resolution...and?
The only reason apple feels they must entertain them, is
because
other
customers do not indicate they have minds imaginations and
interests
of
their own.
a bunch of people gave this organization power, those same
people,
who BTW
have within themselves the ability to write their own
dictionaries
about
blindness and anything else, can tell the nfb they have out
grown
the
need for such a body anymore.
I simply do not understand why one conformity is exchanged
for
another, one
person's ideas of limitations exchanged for those the nfb
create
with
their mindset.
Kare
On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
Karen:
I fully agree. It really does feel like we're slapping
Apple
in
the
face,
forcing them to conform. I really really hope this doesn't
work,
because
it's
going to create a huge mess and totally redefine apps. Not
everything is
accessible but that really is fine with me; usually I can
find
an
app that
is. It's what happens when you use anything, really. My
thoughts
are
mainly
money based: how much money will NFB get for consulting for
something like
this, and secondly how is this trash going to redefine apps
on
the
iPhone?
It's not going to be all that hard for NFB to use their
power
to
force
things
into IOS/apps that don't need to be there, force things
out,
etc.
On 7/12/2014 9:25 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
Let me see if I understand this.
Apple who has built in innovation on its own must discuss
with
the
nfb
how
to now limit that innovation to fit the nfb's one size
fits
all
definition
of blindness? as in all blind people are interchangeable,
and
the
nfb
is
the only source to tell you how to find a plug and play
blind
person
by
which you measure what works for them...all 400 plus
million
of
them?
I wonder how much money they plan on extorting for this
dialog?
Not only should it be a blanket resolution, BTW android
phones
are
the
most popular in use now according to annual surveys, but
this
dialog
should involve many organizations, and a group of apple
customers
who
are
not members of a consumer organization whatsoever.
The very suggestion that a single body is in a position to
speak
for
every
child born of women who happens to have the label blind
attached
to
them
is a stereotypes that really needs to end. otherwise the
individuality
that is the rich experience of redefining blindness is
not
going
to
exist
for the millions who need not buy the nfb line to live
freely
and
inclusively.
Why does the nfb not spend its energy training software
developers
who
fit
their one size fits all blindness box?
Many companies besides Apple would get the benefits that
way.
just my take,
Karen
On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Pamela Francis wrote:
Hello,
I personally am not in favor of this resolution; not
because
I
don't
want accessibility. Apple took the lead in making its
products
accessible without government or organizational
intervention.
Microsoft,
on the other hand, allowed third-party vendors to do its
work
within
accessibility. Google, though it has come along way,
still
does
not
want
to adhere to its own standards unless it is pressed.
If there was a resolution to be had, it should've been a
blanket
resolution for all companies dealing with accessibility.
Picking
on
Apple, is as if we as a blind community are slapping it
in
the
face
given that it has continued its efforts to remain
accessible.
I
understand the need for utilitarian apps such as maps,
transit
maps,
notes, lists, etc. to remain accessible as they are a
necessary
function
in normal life. However, just to use as an example I
don't
necessarily
need Angry Birds to be accessible for my benefit nor do I
need
it
to
be
threatened to be kicked from the app store due to
inaccessibility
for
the sake of millions of people who enjoy it.
As we continue to strive for accessibility in all areas,
we
need
not
be
a bully to the company that went out of its way to make
its
products
accessible from the beginning.
We also do not need to be put into a societal box
allowing
electronics
manufacturers, appliance manufacturers, and the general
public
to
believe that all we are capable of is operating an
iPhone.
We
are
on
the
cusp of choice. We have fought for choice for a long
time.
This
type
of
a resolution makes us look militant and ungrateful.
What
is
fair for
one company is fair for all.
Pam Francis
On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:28 AM, Terje Strømberg
<[email protected]>
wrote:
The NFB Resolution is very important for all blind and
low
vision
all
over the world. We all want accessible digital future.
A link to a comment from the president in NFB:
https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12
Take care
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