Hi, I totally agree with David here although i can understand the purpose of the resolution that means i’m not in favour of it. I used to say that if Apples economy would be in danger, the first thing that would go down the drain is accessibility and i’m afraid, just like i think David is that this resolution would hurry up the process of ditching the accessibility. I may be wrong, but that’s what i believe. That’s because i come from a country that doesn’t have an anti discrimination law worth the name an that’s quite PC centric although many people here use Apple devices.
> 14 jul 2014 kl. 04:41 skrev David Chittenden <[email protected]>: > > Yes, the NFB president really wants to become "in" with Apple so he can > attempt to influence Apple's policies around VoiceOver access to apps written > by third party developers. > > So, let's consider what would most likely happen if Apple should be stupid > enough to do what the NFB resolution is demanding, only from Apple. Apple > creates a policy in their App Store which says all apps must be VO > accessible. Considering that this will not be possible with the vast majority > of purely visual graphical games, game developers will leave and go to the > platforms which appreciate them. So, we have already alienated a large > majority of money-making apps. Kids, teens, and adults, all with vision who > enjoy those games will leave and go to where the fun games are. This will > significantly decrease iOS popularity, and as has been stated, Google, with > its not-so-strong focus on accessibility, and probably Microsoft, with its > non-accessibility in its mobile phones, will become much more popular. > > Shall we also look at other app categories? I challenge you to find one app > category where developers will not vacate to either of the other two mobile > platforms where they would not need to focus on accessibility. Oh, and be > painfully honest and realistic here; not thinking the way you wish it would > be. > > At the time NFB went after Microsoft in the late 90's to convince MS not to > build a robust screen reader into Windows, Freedom Scientific made a > substantial financial contribution to NFB. I find such coincidences to be > quite interesting. Follow the money and many possibilities look fascinating. > > David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA > Email: [email protected] > Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 14 Jul 2014, at 14:20, Marianne Denning <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> According to what I read from the president, it is because Apple has >> gone above and beyond the requirements to make things accessible. He >> has nothing but praise for Apple and their response. There is no >> threat in the resolution that was passed. It is an effort to work >> with Apple. Microsoft and, to some degree, Google and Amazon just >> refuse to seriously work on accessibility. Where do you spend your >> efforts? I am also a TVI and when I am asked which tablet a school >> should purchase for a student my response, without hesitation, is >> Apple. There are still some apps that are used in schools that are >> not accessible so my students cannot fully participate in the >> classroom when this happens. NFB supports full inclusion in >> education, employment and life. >> >> NFB does not receive any money from Microsoft or Freedom Scientific to >> the best of my knowledge. Android is accessible and many blind people >> choose Android over Apple and say bad things about Apple. Android is >> not used as much in education and employment in the U.S. as Apple >> products. There has been a real push for schools to use Apple >> products because of Apple's commitment to accessibility. So, NFB is >> asking them to continue to improve. >> As I stated before, this was a resolution passed by the recent >> national convention held in Florida. I did not attend but if that is >> what the membership who were present believed was important then so be >> it. I will continue to use and support Apple and hope Apple continues >> their commitment to accessibility as we go forward. >>> On 7/13/14, Joanne Chua <[email protected]> wrote: >>> It is still doesn't discount the fact that NFB is picking Apple from >>> the rest o the bunsh. If NFB is so interested in promoting >>> accessibility across all platform, why not Microsoft? Why not Google? >>> Why target purely at Apple? >>> >>> So, yes, is that a punishment for Apple from NFB because Apple has >>> been doing so much for the blind community? Or, is that because NFB >>> got some other deals with some other company, like Microsoft or >>> Freedom Scientific that may favouring them financially by >>> promoting/selling their products, so, is okay to target the single >>> company that they might not able to gain something from? >>> >>> If NFB is really looking at the interest of blind people, and their >>> family, won't it be more useful to target other company like Google, >>> with their less than desirable Androy platform than with Apple? >>> >>> My point still stand, why single out and targeting a company, when >>> there are numbers of company that doesn't do as well as Apple. >>> >>> Also, i think NFB have no rights to be the big man, to say, "oh, >>> because we do this, look now, we are doing the world hell lots of >>> favour for the blind." They have no rights, and shouldn't be givin >>> such rights as well. >>> >>> I'm sure VO happen is not because some NFB big guy went to make deals >>> with Apple, and make Apple have that sense of responsibility to have >>> VO available on their products. If NFB is that influencial in the >>> globally, the "world" will be much more accessible than what it is >>> now. >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 14/07/2014, Marianne Denning <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> You do bring up an interesting point. I don't think your analogy is >>>> too good but Apple is doing a great job. I don't believe NFB is >>>> punishing Apple. According to what I read, NFB is trying to work with >>>> Apple to increase the number of accessible apps. One example is the >>>> Microsoft suite of products. There may be times when we need to or >>>> want to use a Microsoft product on the Mac but cannot since Microsoft >>>> doesn't have an accessible app. Apple puts the information out there >>>> on how to make apps voiceover friendly and many companies don't want >>>> to or don't understand the importance of voiceover accessibility. The >>>> president of NFB wants to work with Apple. He is not against Apple >>>> products in any way and is pleased with their level of commitment. >>>> Does that mean we need to be happy with what we have even though there >>>> are still many apps that are not accessible? If it improves >>>> accessibility to voiceover users in the U.S., it is accessible to >>>> voiceover users around the world. Please read the blog he posted on >>>> this subject. >>>> >>>> If you don't know anything about NFB or ACB, they are both >>>> organizations of blind people and their families. They want to >>>> promote independence for people who are blind and visually impaired. >>>> Both organizations take positions I don't agree with but when we work >>>> together as a group it improves independence for all blind and >>>> visually impaired people. I hope there are similar organizations in >>>> other countries. >>>> >>>>> On 7/13/14, Joanne Chua <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> So Erik, what you are saying is that, when your kid performing very, >>>>> very well at school, always gets 90 points in every exams, while >>>>> the rest is hobbing around 30 points, rarely pass the test, is okay >>>>> for the school principle to point your kid out in public, and punish >>>>> your kid by asking him to perform 100% better, and is okay for the >>>>> rest of the school kids staying behind on 30 points mark? >>>>> >>>>> Or, we got double standard because its NFB, and because its Apple, so, >>>>> hey, who cares about other company, other organization, or even other >>>>> blind people that is not even in America, but could pretty well effect >>>>> by what so call big brother NFB does or doesn't in their policy making >>>>> process? >>>>> >>>>> Jees, if i'm one of the school kid, i'm very happy to stay on 30% >>>>> points mark, and not performing well, because, look what happen when >>>>> you are on 90%? you got name, you got shame, you got single it out. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder, is this the pressure and the fear from other company, say >>>>> Freedom Scientific to NFB. When Apple products weren't accessible, >>>>> people rely on conventional screen reader, conventional braille note >>>>> taker to have a life. But now, because of Apple, thanks for Apple, >>>>> blind people have this sudden choice, not rely on an external screen >>>>> reader, and still able to have a life, a well inform life, a better >>>>> life than ever before in the history. Which also means, blind people >>>>> are more than likely to rely on their own, starting to do self >>>>> advocacy more than ever before, and left those organizations like NFB >>>>> behind in the future. >>>>> >>>>>> On 14/07/2014, erik burggraaf <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> Naming a company does not necessarily imply targeting them. There are >>>>>> sound >>>>>> economic reasons for starting with apple. >>>>>> 1, they are the lear in the field of mobile accessibility right now. >>>>>> Lots >>>>>> of players, only one leader, ...apple, a p p l e. >>>>>> 2, Apple products are used daily in classrooms from at least grade two >>>>>> right >>>>>> through university. They are prominat in government. This isn't true >>>>>> of >>>>>> any other company. Blackberry has a lot of government market share but >>>>>> nothing in education, and almost nothing in employment. Android may be >>>>>> bigger in employment over all than apple, but androide started much >>>>>> later >>>>>> than apple and has only one truely comparable accessibility feature >>>>>> namely >>>>>> talkback A lot of disabled people who would get an android for work as >>>>>> a >>>>>> matter of course are getting apple because the accessibility suite is >>>>>> frankly more robust than that on android. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, I think the discussions should include android. I also think they >>>>>> should include disability advocacy groups besides the blind. But I >>>>>> don't >>>>>> see any one targeting anyone else here. Past experience >>>>>> not-with-standing, >>>>>> this idea that the NFB will somehow bombard apple into enforcing >>>>>> accessibility standards is ludacris. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at 5 >>>>>> pm! >>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click here >>>>>> for >>>>>> detales. >>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2014-07-13, at 6:12 PM, David Chittenden <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> When a resolution singles out one specific company by name, this means >>>>>>> that one specific company is being targeted! If the resolution was >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> multiple companies being approached for increasing accessibility, it >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have said so. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>> Email: [email protected] >>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 10:03, Marianne Denning <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also think it makes sense to push the one that is most accessible. >>>>>>>> Some of the others make it very clear they just don't care. Apple >>>>>>>> believes we are a market. Apple, like all other companies, is about >>>>>>>> making a profit. >>>>>>>> We give them our loyalty but ask them to do more. They have chosen >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> tightly control all apps by requiring us to get them from the app >>>>>>>> store so they need to work to be as accessible as possible. I >>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>> more pressure needs to be put on other companies too so come up with >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> resolution to address that in whatever organization you are active >>>>>>>> with. We, as individuals, benefit from working together as a group. >>>>>>>> The viphone list is a great example of working together as a group >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> this group has gotten out good information to developers who create >>>>>>>> accessible apps. Many members of this group are members of a >>>>>>>> national >>>>>>>> organization too so work through that organization to influence >>>>>>>> companies. >>>>>>>>> On 7/13/14, erik burggraaf <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> I didn't read anything about targetting in the resolution. Show me >>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>> that line is please? >>>>>>>>> Apple has the broadest user base in the access technology market >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> comes to mobile. Apple is also well recognized in education, >>>>>>>>> government, >>>>>>>>> and employment sectors. Samsung is a great accessibility company. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>> see why this resolution shouldn't apply to them except that they >>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> their own app distrobution model. Android is on the rise and has a >>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>> following and I think this conversation should be taken to them. In >>>>>>>>> fact, >>>>>>>>> so it is. Ensuring that apps offer a minimum level of accessibility >>>>>>>>> benefits all disability groups, not just ours. I think its a dialog >>>>>>>>> that a >>>>>>>>> lot of disability organizations should be having with apple and with >>>>>>>>> eachother. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't see apple being targetted here, and I don't see apple being >>>>>>>>> intimidated even if they did feel targetted. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at 5 >>>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click >>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> detales. >>>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-13, at 3:44 PM, David Chittenden <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe it is because the NFB is specifically targeting only the >>>>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>>>> that is doing the most for accessibility and ignoring the companies >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> should be targeting, such as Microsoft, Google, Sony, Panasonic, >>>>>>>>>> Cisco, >>>>>>>>>> Sharp, Samsung, and so forth. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You do not encourage accessibility by targeting the most accessible >>>>>>>>>> company. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>> Email: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 4:13, erik burggraaf <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Isn't the very point of the NFB to advocate? IE, make change for >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> better? IE, make companies like apple do things they wouldn't >>>>>>>>>>> normally >>>>>>>>>>> do by the use of resolution, discussion, policy positions and >>>>>>>>>>> demonstration of the user demand for such change? THe NFB seems >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> be doing what an advocacy organization does. I don't understand >>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>> one has a problem with this. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at >>>>>>>>>>> 5 >>>>>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click >>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>> for detales. >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-12, at 11:36 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" >>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm writing this from a sock-footed perspective, so take that for >>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>> it's worth... >>>>>>>>>>>> None of this is "hate" directed at NFB. I don't agree with their >>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy. I don't believe that one organization should have the >>>>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>> to "resolve" to make a company like Apple do anything. This isn't >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> matter of ACB vs NFB or AFB or anything, it's a matter of what I >>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>> is right. I don't believe that an organization should speak for >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> entire blind population. Further, I don't believe that any >>>>>>>>>>>> organization >>>>>>>>>>>> should be so arrogant as to award a company, then expect them to >>>>>>>>>>>> show >>>>>>>>>>>> up, as if it's an honor to receive that award. I don't understand >>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>> NFB thinks it has the right to force this on anyone, much less >>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>> they're only targetting apple for this. I also don't understand >>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>> they hope to accomplish. Sure there are unaccessible apps out >>>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>> that number is dwindling. Advocacy and work with the developers >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> apps is generally plenty to make people want to make their >>>>>>>>>>>> applications >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. Not always, but enforcing accessibility guidelines >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> forcing an entire OS to conform to those guidelines when it would >>>>>>>>>>>> probably mean changing the user experience for everyone else is >>>>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>> ludicrous. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You brought up the 2009 article: why should we thank NFB for >>>>>>>>>>>> appologising for something they never should have published in >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>>> place? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure where this will lead. I think that work with apple >>>>>>>>>>>> developers and perhaps work under the hood to the native controls >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> make more of a difference. Perhaps developers can choose to have >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> checks enabled, and these checks can insure that specific labels >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> set, etc etc which would generally make the app more accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> also up to the developer, but it would greatly help I think in >>>>>>>>>>>> targetting exactly what needs to be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 11:15 PM, Ray Foret Jr wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am changing the subject because I think it's high time I said >>>>>>>>>>>>> something. I well remember how many Mac users strongly >>>>>>>>>>>>> criticized >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB for their June 2009 Braille Monitor article on Voice Over. >>>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>>> criticism was fully justified: let there be no doubt about >>>>>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>>>> the other hand, how many Mac users gave the NFB credit for the >>>>>>>>>>>>> retraction printed in the December 2009 Monitor article? Not >>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to recall. Look, it's your business whether or not you >>>>>>>>>>>>> hate >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB and I cannot change your minds about that. I'm not even >>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> try. But, frankly, I think it's very shallow minded to have >>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>>>>>>>>>> of hatred controlling the issue when what we need to do is have >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> balanced and mature conversation. Hate us all you want: but, >>>>>>>>>>>>> remember, there are NFB members who use Macs and iPHones and >>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple products too. For what it may be worth, I do not hate >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB. Why should I? They've never done anything to me to >>>>>>>>>>>>> merit >>>>>>>>>>>>> such hatred. I would add this. My own state, Louisiana, voted >>>>>>>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>>>> the resolution at the convention this year. This somewhat took >>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>> surprise. I did not expect that to happen, but it did. Look, >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>> are NFB members and who use our Apple products love them as much >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> do. I know that, for myself, I will never touch windows again. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>> sooner be without a computer totally than to do that. I do not >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>> it is at all reasonable to ask the current generation to bear >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> hatreds of the past. 1961 is long gone: as the hatred of those >>>>>>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>>>>>> should also be. Condemn what I say if you wish: (That's your >>>>>>>>>>>>> right.): >>>>>>>>>>>>> but, just bear in mind that the only one being effected by your >>>>>>>>>>>>> hatred >>>>>>>>>>>>> of people like me is yourself. I don't hate you. You see, it's >>>>>>>>>>>>> frightfully simple. Those who hate you don't win unless you >>>>>>>>>>>>> hate >>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have what ever feelings you choose towards me and what I say: >>>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>>> bear in mind that we really need to rise above such things and >>>>>>>>>>>>> continue >>>>>>>>>>>>> to help each other with Apple product issues. After all, is >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>> the principal purpose of this list? When I first joined, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> received >>>>>>>>>>>>> much good help from the members of this list. I would hate to >>>>>>>>>>>>> depart >>>>>>>>>>>>> from this list over feelings of bitterness and hatred with >>>>>>>>>>>>> respect >>>>>>>>>>>>> either to the ACB or NFB. No. I cannot change how you feel: >>>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>>> frankly, I'd prefer a gentler tone. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Constantly Barefooted Ray, Still a very happy Mac and iphone >>>>>>>>>>>>> user! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> blind built-in! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:57 PM, David Chittenden >>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is probably more like, NFB attempted to dialogue with Apple. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuffed NFB, like Apple rebuffs any organization doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar. NFB passes a resolution which they can then take back >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple and say, See, the blind are behind us because we are the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and this resolution was passed at our convention, so you really >>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to dialogue with us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What will be the result? Apple will again rebuff NFB, just like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuffs any organization attempting such an approach. NFB may >>>>>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become in-sensed again and we will see some form of tantrum >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I recall, when Apple did not send an official representative >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Convention to receive the awards NFB gave Apple, a few >>>>>>>>>>>>>> months >>>>>>>>>>>>>> later articles appeared in the Braille Monitor proving how >>>>>>>>>>>>>> horrible >>>>>>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver was on the Mac. Yes, I suspect NFB will do something >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> idiotic this time when their scheme does not work yet again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 13:57, Tristan <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel the need to point out this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This gives me a largely new prospective on this; I was really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to agree with everyone's opinions on this at first, but it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looks like they're trying to work with, and not threaten Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> core of the resolution. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this link has been posted prior, I apologize, but thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While I do think it's an unnecessary step, it does not look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slap in the face to apple nor a step backwards. It's something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally wouldn't care about and probably wouldn't pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I'm comfortable with the way apps are handled on both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iOS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/14, Karen Lewellen <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot imagine it being about anything else but nfb getting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange for building in limitations. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Granted I make no secret of choosing my own dictionary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But why on earth in the 21st century is anyone still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worshiping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> altar anyway? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So they pass a resolution...and? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only reason apple feels they must entertain them, is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers do not indicate they have minds imaginations and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their own. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bunch of people gave this organization power, those same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who BTW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have within themselves the ability to write their own >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictionaries >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness and anything else, can tell the nfb they have out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grown >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need for such a body anymore. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I simply do not understand why one conformity is exchanged >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another, one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person's ideas of limitations exchanged for those the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mindset. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I fully agree. It really does feel like we're slapping Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forcing them to conform. I really really hope this doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to create a huge mess and totally redefine apps. Not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible but that really is fine with me; usually I can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is. It's what happens when you use anything, really. My >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money based: how much money will NFB get for consulting for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this, and secondly how is this trash going to redefine apps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not going to be all that hard for NFB to use their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into IOS/apps that don't need to be there, force things out, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 9:25 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me see if I understand this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple who has built in innovation on its own must discuss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to now limit that innovation to fit the nfb's one size fits >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of blindness? as in all blind people are interchangeable, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only source to tell you how to find a plug and play >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which you measure what works for them...all 400 plus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> million >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder how much money they plan on extorting for this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not only should it be a blanket resolution, BTW android >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most popular in use now according to annual surveys, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should involve many organizations, and a group of apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not members of a consumer organization whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The very suggestion that a single body is in a position to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speak >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> child born of women who happens to have the label blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attached >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a stereotypes that really needs to end. otherwise the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is the rich experience of redefining blindness is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the millions who need not buy the nfb line to live >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusively. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does the nfb not spend its energy training software >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their one size fits all blindness box? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many companies besides Apple would get the benefits that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just my take, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Pamela Francis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I personally am not in favor of this resolution; not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want accessibility. Apple took the lead in making its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible without government or organizational >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the other hand, allowed third-party vendors to do its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility. Google, though it has come along way, still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to adhere to its own standards unless it is pressed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there was a resolution to be had, it should've been a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blanket >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution for all companies dealing with accessibility. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Picking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple, is as if we as a blind community are slapping it in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given that it has continued its efforts to remain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand the need for utilitarian apps such as maps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notes, lists, etc. to remain accessible as they are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in normal life. However, just to use as an example I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need Angry Birds to be accessible for my benefit nor do I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> threatened to be kicked from the app store due to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sake of millions of people who enjoy it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As we continue to strive for accessibility in all areas, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bully to the company that went out of its way to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible from the beginning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We also do not need to be put into a societal box allowing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manufacturers, appliance manufacturers, and the general >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that all we are capable of is operating an iPhone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cusp of choice. We have fought for choice for a long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> type >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a resolution makes us look militant and ungrateful. What >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fair for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one company is fair for all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pam Francis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:28 AM, Terje Strømberg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The NFB Resolution is very important for all blind and low >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vision >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over the world. We all want accessible digital future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A link to a comment from the president in NFB: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fool; he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a >>>>>>>>>>>> fool; >>>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>>>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>>>>>>> (513) 607-6053 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups >>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an >>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>>> (513) 607-6053 >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >> (513) 607-6053 >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
