Hi Alex, I for one appreciate the work you went through to post your report in a very timely manner. Comments like what George did our typical for some people and in my view most unhelpful. I say again most definitely not helpful. So I'm glad that you are continuing to do the good work that you and the others at Appleblle vis do. Mary
Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 1, 2015, at 3:01 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@icloud.com> wrote: > > Hi all, > I wanted to hit a few points I've seen raised in this thread. > > First, I want to address George's comment suggesting that I would do a > podcast/blog post like this on a beta. I didn't, and I wouldn't, plain and > simple. I was running the GM, which is the final version in all but name. > It's standard practice to use the GM for demos, reviews, bug testing for > non-beta users, and so on. I'd like to know how George knows which version of > OS X is on my machine, when I never said anything about running a beta? In > one section, VoiceOver announces "Xcode-beta", because I'm also running the > Xcode 7.1 beta, but that has nothing to do with my OS X version. > > Second, I know that not all bugs will be considered as serious or trivial by > everyone. My thinking in classification is something like: > > * serious: if it happens, it'll cause a lot of confusion or time lost, and/or > slightly less serious problems that happen constantly. The inability to read > PDFs, or VoiceOver randomly cutting itself off while you try to read, are > serious. > * Moderate: you can deal with it, but it'll get annoying, and it may be worth > waiting for this to be fixed. It won't make you lose a lot of time, or be > unable to access parts of your machine--you can work around it with minor > hassle, in other words. VO not automatically reading email when you press > enter is moderate, as there are ways around it. yet, for those who read their > mail this way, it will be frustrating and inconvenient to put up with. > * Minor: it's a bug, but it isn't too important. It can easily be worked > around, and there's no big rush to fix it, but it'd be nice if it were > squashed. Plain arrow keys not identifying all page elements is minor, since > there are other ways of navigating webpages and, often, something being a > list or heading is less important than what that thing actually says. > > Third, we'll all never agree on severity. I consider some bugs to be serious > that you never deal with, thus you consider them minor, while bugs I don't > think matter much might impact you far more severely than they do me. When I > rate bugs, I try to do so from the perspective of someone who will experience > the problem a lot. For instance, if you never Airdrop, you would consider the > inability to vo-space on an Airdrop target to be minor, but if you use the > feature a lot, it becomes moderate. In 10.10, then, I classed it as moderate. > > Finally, on the point about bugs scaring people into not upgrading. I can > only report the bugs I experience. If I can confirm them with others, so much > the better, but if I can't, and if I can still reliably reproduce them, they > are bugs. Not everyone will have the exact same set of bugs, no matter what, > which makes this whole process quite difficult. My thinking is that, if I can > always reproduce a bug, someone else could easily be impacted by it, too. > Nowhere in my post do I say that every problem is guaranteed to be > encountered by every user, because that's simply not the case. I realize that > not all of us are having the same problems, but I also have to cover as many > users as I can, and that includes the fringe problems only a few people have. > It seems like a system that says how many others have encountered the same > bug would be helpful, but those numbers can never be relied on for very much > because the sample size is just too small. What if someone sees that bug X > has only one person reporting it, so they install anyway and the bug bites > them? What if a lot of people have a bug, but don't post about it in the same > place someone is looking for how many people are affected? This stuff is just > too unpredictable, particularly when we get into edge cases or > configuration-specific issues. > > Thanks for your understanding. I know it can be frustrating to experience > bugs no one else is, or, conversely, to have few problems and not understand > why someone else is making a big deal out of what you see as nothing. As I > said, I have to cast as wide a net as I can, because I never know what bug > might be a show-stopper for someone, nor do I know which bugs will be > experienced by which users or machine setups. I hope this has clarified a few > things. >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 13:32, Donna Goodin <doniado...@me.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Mary, >> >> I also use classic View, but I almost always prefer accomplishing an action >> with a single key-press, rather than a command that requires multiple keys, >> so I prefer the Enter method. It used to work great, up until Yosemite. >> Cheers, >> Donna >>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 12:09 PM, Mary Otten <motte...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Donna, and thanks for your reply. I am a big fan of the preview pane, >>> the classic view, and using vo Jay to jump between the message list and the >>> text. So the one where you hit enter to open the message and read is not >>> something that would be a huge deal for me. I have done it on occasion, >>> using Yosemite, and don't recall having the bug. But again, I don't use >>> that method very often. >>> Mary >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:03 AM, Donna Goodin <doniado...@me.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Mary, >>>> >>>> The one that bugs me the most on a day-to-day basis is the one pertaining >>>> to mail messages. It's very rare that I open a message and just get to >>>> read it. I very often have to open and close it several times. >>>> >>>> there were others I noticed, I think pertaining to the Safari busy. and >>>> having to show and hide the reader a couple of times. But the mail one is >>>> the bug that really drives me crazy. >>>> Take care, >>>> Donna >>>> >>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 11:35 AM, Mary Otten <motte...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Donna, >>>>> I would be curious which of Alex's bugs you experienced in Yosemite. Some >>>>> of the ones I recall reading on his list I am certainly not experiencing, >>>>> and those are some of the more serious ones. Audio ducking doesn't much >>>>> concern me. But the web stuff, getting stuck on webpages, the problems >>>>> with the neuance etc., those do concern me a lot. >>>>> Mary >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 4:45 AM, Donna Goodin <doniado...@me.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I finally had a minute to read Alex's bugs list. I thought it worth >>>>>> mentioning that many of those bugs are bugs I'm currently experiencing >>>>>> in Yosemite. so, while I confess I was hoping they would be fixed in el >>>>>> Capitán, these are not new bugs, just old ones that didn't get fixed. >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Donna >>>>>>> On Sep 30, 2015, at 12:56 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@icloud.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> Just a note to say that El Capitan has been released. I compiled a bug >>>>>>> list for AppleVis which I strongly recommend everyone looks at, as >>>>>>> there are some pretty major problems on there. I also wrote a blog, and >>>>>>> did a podcast, covering the new features in VoiceOver. Links: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bug List: >>>>>>> http://www.applevis.com/blog/mac-os-x-news/accessibility-bugs-os-x-1011-el-capitan-serious-minor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Features Blog: >>>>>>> http://www.applevis.com/blog/assistive-technology-mac-os-x-news/whats-new-os-x-1011-el-capitan-voiceover-users >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Features Podcast: >>>>>>> http://www.applevis.com/podcast/episodes/exploring-some-new-accessibility-features-os-x-1011-el-capitan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I realized, in reading this email back, that it might come off as a >>>>>>> little arrogant. I don't mean it that way, I just wanted to give people >>>>>>> a single place to get some coverage about the new OS, and those are the >>>>>>> only accessibility-centric sources I know of for now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Have a great day, >>>>>>> Alex Hall >>>>>>> mehg...@icloud.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > Have a great day, > Alex Hall > mehg...@icloud.com > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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