So what if they do, the point is there are plenty of other points to tap that data if the government is serious that conform to constitutional requirements. For example, if they are over seas we can tap away, not a citizen and so forth.
BtW, the idea that the terrorists are using strong cryptography isn’t for certain. I’ve heard several intelligence types indicating that cryptography wasn’t used at all. In some cases they will put emails in the saved folder instead of sending them and have the target visit the computer physically to pick up the message. Other times they use USB sticks, it’s called sneaker net. This is just a government wanting to bug a platform it can’t for no justified reason. > On Feb 24, 2016, at 8:25 AM, Carter Temm <crtbrai...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Privacy is extremely important. Especially on the internet today. > But lets just say apple wins this case. Then, others with malicious > intent can just say "hey, lets use apple services. They are a secure > way of communication, right?" > But this should not be a reason aplle has to make a backdoor. > > On 2/24/16, Scott Granados <sc...@qualityip.net> wrote: >> Not to mention how much money Verizon and AT&T make from the government. >> Both for their illegal tapping programs and just in general, the dollar >> amounts are high and they have immunity and extra protections. >> >>> On Feb 23, 2016, at 10:02 PM, 'Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries >>> <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> Yes, and you may have notice that while FaceBook and Google have been >>> cheering on Apple, the other phone manufacturers have be conspicuously >>> silent. I think they are happy letting Apple be the lightning rod on this >>> one. >>> >>> CB >>> >>> On 2/22/16 8:38 AM, Scott Granados wrote: >>>> Agreed, I’m surprised there is no mention of this on any of the other >>>> platform lists. Google is as vulnerable to this as Apple if the >>>> government sets it’s mind to it. >>>> >>>> What about all the plants as well? Juniper Networks and Cisco have both >>>> recently suffered from having NSA plants inject back doors in to their >>>> source code for cracking VPN tunnels. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Feb 20, 2016, at 11:39 PM, 'Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries >>>>> <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The focus on "one device" is a diversion. For a back door to be >>>>> effective the FBI needs to be sure that every phone has the compromised >>>>> security system because they can't know ahead of time which phone they >>>>> might need to get unlocked. That opens the door for any interested party >>>>> with legitimate or illegitimate influence to get the key from Apple. >>>>> Sooner or later that key will slip out into the wild or someone will >>>>> fabricate their own. So the emphasis about this being just for this one >>>>> case is really not tenable. >>>>> >>>>> CB >>>>> >>>>> On 2/20/16 4:56 PM, Tyler Thompson wrote: >>>>>> It’s a pipe dream. Without going into crazy technical detail you’re >>>>>> talking about either bypassing or giving up their cryptographic private >>>>>> key, the moment you do that it’s all over, for 1 device or for a >>>>>> million devices. Unlike, say, a firewall where you can open a port to 1 >>>>>> specific device based on MAC address, let it get it’s information then >>>>>> close it off again. This is a different concept. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Eric Oyen <eric.o...@icloud.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hmmm. good points. >>>>>>> now, I am not a crypto specialist. I am a basic IT/security tech. my >>>>>>> thing is firewalls, intrusion detection and disinfection >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There has to be a way where apple doesn't have to give up security and >>>>>>> still allow the FBI access to that one device (without compromising >>>>>>> all others). Is this possible or am I smoking a real pipe dream here? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -eric >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2016, at 1:41 PM, Tyler Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So I feel it’s about time to throw in my 2 cents here. I’m a >>>>>>>> Certified Ethical Hacker and I’ve got qualifications and >>>>>>>> certifications in regards to cryptography, steganography and cyber >>>>>>>> security. I don’t bring this up to brag but instead to outline that >>>>>>>> I’m speaking from a place of experience. In this letter to us, the >>>>>>>> customers Tim Cook does a decent job of outlining the issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can say with 100% certainty that by creating access to a single >>>>>>>> phone apple will significantly reduce it’s ability to protect your >>>>>>>> data, and, what’s worse they’ll give that access to the FBI. There’s >>>>>>>> no such thing as a backdoor into 1 device. One of the most potent >>>>>>>> security measures, and one that Apple has implemented is to ensure >>>>>>>> that nobody again nobody has access to secured data, including Apple >>>>>>>> themselves. When I’m contracted out to build secure apps or websites >>>>>>>> I do the same thing, for example, once a password has been created >>>>>>>> for a user I do not, and cannot ever gain access to that users >>>>>>>> account. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In order to build a “backdoor” you have to build it into the >>>>>>>> operating system. This means every iOS operating system would become >>>>>>>> vulnerable to both malicious hackers and our government. But let me >>>>>>>> give it to you in an analogy: Imagine that the iPhone is your home. >>>>>>>> Now imagine that your home is in a bad neighborhood and is a >>>>>>>> high-profile home. So the FBI comes along and asks you to please >>>>>>>> smash out one of your own windows in broad daylight. When you say it >>>>>>>> lowers the security of your home the answer is “Well it’s ok, thieves >>>>>>>> in the area don’t know which window you smashed out.” >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I’ve been a very avid Apple fan for years now, I love their >>>>>>>> accessibility, I love their products but knowing about cyber security >>>>>>>> I can guarantee you right now that if they build this backdoor I will >>>>>>>> immediately stop using apple products. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You want one even scarier? Think about a backdoor to an operating >>>>>>>> system that houses your credit card info for Apple Pay. That’s not >>>>>>>> enough for you? What about your keychain? You know, the one where you >>>>>>>> store all your passwords for things like your bank account. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We can say “Surely you can just do it this once” all we want to but >>>>>>>> I’m here to tell you there’s no such thing. Once you’ve lowered your >>>>>>>> security it’s done and the product will never be as secure again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tyler K. Thompson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Software Engineer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2016, at 1:22 PM, Eric Oyen <eric.o...@icloud.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ok, >>>>>>>>> the way I see it, apple can come up with a method to access the >>>>>>>>> device. Hell, if the fingerprints of the terrorists are still >>>>>>>>> available, and that were the only method of encryption, then the FBI >>>>>>>>> already has its problem solved. If, however, there was a secondary >>>>>>>>> method (like a passcode) used, then it becomes a lot harder to get >>>>>>>>> into the device. Note: I did not say impossible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now, apple can develop a method by which they can access the phone. >>>>>>>>> they aren't required to publish it nor to provide it to law >>>>>>>>> enforcement. all they need to do is provide a technician who knows >>>>>>>>> the method (and has the program). since that program will not be >>>>>>>>> turned over to the FBI, there is essentially no problem. Apple would >>>>>>>>> retain custody of the program and the method and law enforcement >>>>>>>>> would have to follow the law (file a warrant, etc.). At this point, >>>>>>>>> there would be no back door to exploit To further secure it, I would >>>>>>>>> props that the program be placed on a specialized (and isolated) >>>>>>>>> device. THis device cannot be plugged into any network and would >>>>>>>>> also require the use of a password (only known to apple) to work. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> does this sound like a decent proposal? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -eric >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Feb 19, 2016, at 4:34 PM, Simon Fogarty wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I agree, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's not just terrorist that this will effect it's all IOS device >>>>>>>>>> users. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A back door access to one device is a back door to all devices of >>>>>>>>>> that type. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Iargree >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of George Cham >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, 19 February 2016 9:21 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable >>>>>>>>>> search >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That's a good point about the fingerprint. But my question is this >>>>>>>>>> doesn't make apple an accessory to terrorism if they don't >>>>>>>>>> cooperate with the FBI? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> George, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Feb 2016, at 6:53 PM, Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Apart from that point where if your phone battery dies and you >>>>>>>>>>> need to >>>>>>>>>>> use the pin code to open it for the first time >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Or did they even have finguerprints setup on the devices. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott >>>>>>>>>>> Granados >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, 19 February 2016 8:11 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against >>>>>>>>>>> unreasonable >>>>>>>>>>> search >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Karen, you raise a really really good question. Why don’t they >>>>>>>>>>> just use the fingerprint of the phone owner. He’s dead anyway so >>>>>>>>>>> you don’t have to worry about his specific rights, he’s dead.:) >>>>>>>>>>> Couldn’t they lift a print or even a finger and just use that? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means >>>>>>>>>>> in. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen >>>>>>>>>>>> <klewel...@shellworld.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other >>>>>>>>>>>> doors, such as the fingerprints of those involved. >>>>>>>>>>>> A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is >>>>>>>>>>>> simply unwise to develop. Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one >>>>>>>>>>>> should have their privacy compromised in this fashion. >>>>>>>>>>>> After all consider how often the government has themselves been >>>>>>>>>>>> hacked, not only could this key be abused by the government, it >>>>>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>>>> be stolen by others. Just my take, Karen >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against >>>>>>>>>>>>> being forced to cripple the security on iPhones. Anyone have >>>>>>>>>>>>> any comments? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, >>>>>>>>>>>>> please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than >>>>>>>>>>>>> posting on the list itself. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your >>>>>>>>>>>>> owner is >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >>>>>>>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on >>>>>>>>>>> the list itself. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - 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