I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good at 
performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a straight 
horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is a 
right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must be 
drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do this 
without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 the time, 
after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than right angles, 
it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock Android as my 
second phone, rather than two iPhones.

Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their interface 
is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many advanced features 
as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of current devices lighting up 
people's lives.

Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 95% 
of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with Android. I 
believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the interface must 
be usable.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados <sc...@qualityip.net> wrote:
> 
> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
> 
> Well played sir.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Scott,
>> 
>> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
>> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock <michael.babcoc...@gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer …
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
>>> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>>> phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>>> Applevis.
>>>> 
>>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>>> 
>>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>>> 
>>>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>>>> system, namely OS.
>>>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>>>>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>>>>> adopted.
>>>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>>>>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>>>>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update 
>>>>> promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
>>>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>>>>> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
>>>>> not helpful or easily usable.
>>>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on 
>>>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using 
>>>>> the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to 
>>>>> give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and 
>>>>> not the other way round.
>>>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>>>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
>>>>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
>>>>> good.
>>>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk 
>>>>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com 
>>>>> <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now 
>>>>>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still 
>>>>>> handled the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one 
>>>>>> double-taps on a thread to activate it, one goes into a browse 
>>>>>> thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical flick moves up 
>>>>>> and down through the messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks 
>>>>>> read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete button 
>>>>>> at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. 
>>>>>> Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and 
>>>>>> individual messages which do not belong to threads, and individual 
>>>>>> messages. In other words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in 
>>>>>> the message list screen.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the 
>>>>>> thread must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, 
>>>>>> single-finger vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, 
>>>>>> the thread is unpacked and all the messages in the thread are 
>>>>>> treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to 
>>>>>> this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
>>>>>> frustration to become used to this new system.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps 
>>>>>> for iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love 
>>>>>> touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton <philh...@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:philh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I 
>>>>>>> can no longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, 
>>>>>>> instead I have to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, 
>>>>>>> the list of messages in a thread no longer appears, but instead I 
>>>>>>> am thrown into the first message in the thread and then have to 
>>>>>>> navigate between messages using the next and pre message buttons. 
>>>>>>> What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message 
>>>>>>> gone in ios10?
>>>>>>> Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are 
>>>>>>> there some settings that need tweaking?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>> 
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