you can also try open office and see if that works out. On Oct 10, 2010, at 8:01 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
> Sott I just can't agree with you about the level of productivity. Whenever > someone says this, I find their scope is very narrow. If you were to base > your productivity on one application or on specialized software, perhaps that > would be true. The only software I need at work now is Microsoft Office. This > is primarily because I do not have iWork and some compatibility issues with > WOrd documents still exists. However, for research, e-mail, and managing my > calendar are all done on the Mac. So, I am just having a hard time > understanding how you can consider the "PC" (i.e. WIndows) as being more > productive when so many examples of productive users exists. Can you further > define what you mean? > On Oct 10, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Scott Ford wrote: > >> Hi John, >> I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I frequently find >> myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete work because the >> application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as on the PC. I >> truly feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great strides with >> every new release, however looking at the two platforms critically I feel >> the Mac is just not quite there. I am willing to bet that within the next >> year this will not be the case. The switchers are growing by the day. The >> other little option not found on the pc is the fact that one can boot into >> windows or run vm ware fusion to access windows. On their Mac. I am an >> Adaptive Technology specialist, every month I am getting more and more >> requests about the Mac. The truth is that many people dislike the fact that >> one must use many more keys than on the pc, however we are seeing that Apple >> is addressing this with each subsequent release as well. For example the >> quick nav and the magic track pad gestures for Voice over. I guess what I >> am attempting to say is that I feel the answer is not a cut and dried one. >> There are positives and negatives on both sides of the issue. The bottom >> line is that looking at a pure productivity stand point the pc would have it >> hands down right now. This will continue to change with Apples continued >> commitment to voice over and the adaptive technology that it continues to >> incorporate in the OS. I hope that this helps. >> Sincerely, >> Scott >> >> On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: >> >>> Carolyn, >>> >>> thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do >>> not wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed. >>> >>> but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger >>> navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its >>> Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one. >>> >>> Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac >>> user can use their Mac in this way. >>> >>> All I want is that level playing field. >>> >>> Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what >>> the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do. >>> >>> Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that >>> Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, >>> sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this >>> conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost. >>> >>> its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other >>> accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or >>> wrongly, and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one >>> persons needs on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the >>> Apple approach to work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on >>> this list. >>> >>> I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you >>> can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / >>> off. this helps a lot. >>> >>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>> >>> Neil Barnfather >>> Talks List Administrator >>> >>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your >>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>> >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]]on Behalf Of Carolyn >>> Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30 >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... >>> >>> Hi Neil and others: >>> I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a >>> year, and only made the switch semi-successfully. Further, I'm not a >>> genius, a tech expert, or even a wizzard. I'm just a computer user who is >>> fascinated by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for >>> my daily functioning. >>> Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS >>> using one finger. That to me is a big stretch. Unless, of course you are >>> a wizzard:). >>> Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here. Two totally >>> different operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things. >>> Microsoft has been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at >>> least the early 90's If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great >>> for you. I also find myself frustrated by some of the fingering >>> requirements of the OS with Voiceover. It's far from perfect. But, to >>> expect the same level of comfort from a system that is a standard, >>> out-of-the-box system is putting the bar too high for a company that is >>> finally trying to level the playingfield for us. >>> Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and >>> energy to get as far as I have on the MAC. But, I did so knowing this >>> field hasn't been thoroughly plowed. I wanted to have an option other than >>> paying Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date. Which meant >>> no new computer for at least a couple more years. So, I requested a Mac as >>> a Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me >>> and others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less. >>> Now, if I had the PC down to one-finger use, as you say you have, perhaps >>> I'd be telling a different story. For now, I'm pretty happy to learn and >>> grow into a system as it grows and developes, rather than forking out >>> another thousand to line the pockets of specialty providers. >>> End of soapbox. Thanks for reading. >>> >>> Carolyn >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:02 AM >>> Subject: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need >>> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and >>> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success. >>> >>> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon >>> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece >>> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the >>> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not. >>> >>> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot >>> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen >>> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning >>> curve, stick with it and you'll get there... >>> >>> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to >>> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I >>> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over... >>> >>> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to >>> hopefully answer once and for all. >>> >>> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that >>> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the >>> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same >>> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same. >>> >>> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the >>> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently. >>> >>> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either >>> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself. >>> >>> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where >>> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way. >>> >>> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation >>> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's >>> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places >>> and of a different design. >>> >>> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one >>> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger. >>> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc. >>> >>> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use >>> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many >>> commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement. >>> >>> Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this >>> would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and >>> iPad, all 3 of which I own. >>> >>> However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity, >>> or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user >>> moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again. >>> >>> *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's >>> still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again. >>> >>> So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for >>> me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more >>> importantly one finger for most commands and navigation. >>> >>> I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one >>> finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two >>> fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself >>> passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered. >>> >>> So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do >>> not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging >>> existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's >>> biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please >>> forgive me if I missed up Control and Command. >>> >>> Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this >>> is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one >>> finger for navigation of the Mac itself? >>> >>> Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I >>> wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier, >>> the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one. >>> >>> I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability >>> front. Yes Voice Over is more stable than JAWS / Window Eyes, but >>> principally because it is part of the operating platform, and not because >>> its superior or that Mac OSx is. >>> >>> This statement about operating platforms may have held some degree of water >>> back in the days gone by, but with Windows 7, and a decent PC specification, >>> one can get as much performance and stability out of a PC as a Mac. >>> moreover, in terms of security, I've never known anyone I know who has a >>> brain using a PC to get a virus, the problem is that the PC world is where >>> the masses are, and many of those masses are nits, and they do stupid >>> things... when the PC pops up asking if they wish to install and download a >>> virus to delete all their data, they um, then ah, and then click OK. well >>> that's stupidity and not Windows being vulnerable. >>> >>> *Note* I do accept that if you introduce JAWS or Window Eyes to a PC that >>> this can affect OS performance and stability. Indeed, my technical support >>> staff have many a time commented, how to watch an amazing machine, filled >>> with the latest technology, working like a dream turn to treacle, install >>> JAWS. >>> >>> this is true, and is a significant factor to me wishing to jump ship, of >>> course if FS did what Microsoft did with Windows 7, i.e. dropped the whole >>> program and started a fresh, I believe that JAWS could seriously give Voice >>> Over a run for its money on the stability front. as it happens this move is >>> highly unlikely. >>> >>> So there it is folks, what do you Apple wizards think? >>> >>> best regards. >>> >>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>> >>> Neil Barnfather >>> Talks List Administrator >>> >>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your >>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group >>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group >>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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