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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:15:28 To:[email protected] Subject: maemo-developers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 83 Send maemo-developers mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of maemo-developers digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Wii-Remote (Andreas Hubel) 2. Re: Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation (Andy Mulhearn) 3. Re: Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation (Andy Mulhearn) 4. Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation (Levi Bard) 5. Re: Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation (Levi Bard) 6. Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation (Marius Vollmer) 7. Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation (Levi Bard) 8. Re: NX Client for Nokia 770/800 (Uwe Koch) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:50:49 +0100 (CET) From: "Andreas Hubel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [maemo-developers] Wii-Remote To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Hi, has somebody already tried to connect a Wii-Remote with an Nokia 770 or N800 via Bluetooth? see http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Wiimote for more infos ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:39:58 +0000 From: Andy Mulhearn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation To: Paul Klapperich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected], [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 15 Feb 2007, at 16:47, Paul Klapperich wrote: > On 2/15/07, Marius Vollmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation > > where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your > > system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to > > where you were. > > I have zero experience with Windows, so I don't know how painful it is > what you describe. > > That, in particular, would be solved by having a somewhat recent > flash image like you mentioned earlier. What he's describing would > be akin to having to install Ubuntu Dapper and then having to patch > your way up to Feisty Fawn, or similar. Generally not a danger, but > it certainly takes a long time. > With the added joys of having to authenticate your software, download a new copy of dpkg/apt-get, reboot three times, re-authenticate your licence, phone Microsoft when you fail authentication, reboot and wait an hour while all the patches install. Andy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/attachments/20070215/cdc461a3/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:41:20 +0000 From: Andy Mulhearn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation To: Marius Vollmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected], [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On 15 Feb 2007, at 16:39, Marius Vollmer wrote: > "ext Andy Mulhearn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> I suppose that depends on how reliable is the incremental flash >> process. If it's 100% then there should be no problems with what you >> suggest. > > That's one thing that we have to figure out. Non-trivial I suspect. > >> My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation >> where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your >> system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to >> where you were. > > I have zero experience with Windows, so I don't know how painful it is > what you describe. Grim. One of the levels of hell. Andy ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:07:01 -0600 From: "Levi Bard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation To: "Marius Vollmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected], [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > In the future, we hope to be able to provide official updates to the > operating system itself via packages, and we need to give the > end-users the confidence that when they intend to install a Nokia > provided operating system update, they actually get what they think > they are getting. Great! It'll be great to escape the backup->flash->restore->reinstall cycle! > This means that the Application Manager will not allow you to update > individual OS packages (or to install third party applications that > require this), since you would have to remove the meta package for > that. It is still possible to install additional 'system' packages, > just not to upgrade already installed ones. > > A second new feature is that the Application Manager will distinguish > between "trusted sources" and "non-trusted sources" (based on the key > used to sign the corresponding repository). A package that has > originally been installed from a trusted source will only be allowed > to be updated (or replaced) from a trusted source. The flash image is > also treated as a trusted source, so you will only be able to update > packages that are pre-installed in the device from trusted sources. IMO the second new feature makes the first one irrelevant. Locking the OS metapackage to exact versions of depended packages will cause headaches for nokia, developers, and users. Say you've just released an OS metapackage, maemo 3.1 sturgeon, and then one the guys working on cairo makes a huge breakthrough in speed and stability. You want users to be able to upgrade, but now you have to release a new OS metapackage to do so, so you either need to make users wait for another "full" release, or release a new OS metapackage whose only change is an upgraded cairo dependency. This potentially means a lot of frivolous new OS releases. However, the "trusted source" feature means that you don't have to worry about this. If you release OS metapackage maemo-3.2007-sturgeon with the *greater than or equal*-style dependencies, people can only upgrade those packages from Nokia. This means that users don't have to worry about the potential of getting a broken cairo package from Joe's Repo, and that you can release a new cairo package when it's ready without having to worry about synchronizing with other packages' releases, announcing a new OS release, etc. > The meta package could depend on 'this version or later' of a package > instead of on "exactly this version'. That would allow it to control > the update just as much, but would not lock down the configuration of > the device so much. The motivation for this lock-down of the device > configuration is that Nokia (probably, IANAL) doesn't want to support > any other configuration, and having to 'hack' your system via the > red-pill mode or similar is a good indication that you are now on your > own. I am wholly in favor of this, as may be gathered from my previous paragraph. And the "trusted repository" scheme means that the device is just as locked down for support purposes. -- It doesn't take a nukular scientist to pronounce foilage! --Marge Simpson http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:08:50 -0600 From: "Levi Bard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation To: "Paul Klapperich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected], [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > My thought is that it might be worthwhile to have a constant warning written > at the bottom of the "Check for Updates" dialog in the Application manager. > A user should really backup before any update, but prompting with a dialog > that frequently will only encourage users to ignore it. Major updates should > definitely come with a dialog, and as this occurs less frequently perhaps > people might actually read it and heed the warning ;) IMO a constant warning will become part of the scenery, and users will forget about it, if indeed they notice it at all in the first place. -- It doesn't take a nukular scientist to pronounce foilage! --Marge Simpson http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:38:29 +0200 From: Marius Vollmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation To: "ext Levi Bard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected], [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "ext Levi Bard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Say you've just released an OS metapackage, maemo 3.1 sturgeon, and > then one the guys working on cairo makes a huge breakthrough in > speed and stability. You want users to be able to upgrade, but now > you have to release a new OS metapackage to do so, [...] Yes, and I actually see this as a feature, since there is no "apt-get upgrade" functionality in the Application Manager. Users would get the newer vesion of cairo by accident, when they install or upgrade a non-hidden package that depends on cairo. Another example are security fixes: they too will require a meta package. I think the additional burdon to maintain this meta package is not too high. >> The meta package could depend on 'this version or later' [...] > > I am wholly in favor of this, as may be gathered from my previous > paragraph. And the "trusted repository" scheme means that the device > is just as locked down for support purposes. Not exactly: we do not only want to control which individual packages you can install, but also which combinations. Say there is a new version of cairo, but we figure out that we also need to upgrade the internet radio applet since it had a bug that--by chance--wasn't triggered by the old version of cairo. So we want to only support the new cairo together with the new radio applet. With a version locked meta package, we can make sure that the user gets the right combinations of packages. If you want to try out the new cairo anyway before Nokia releases the official meta package that pulls it in, you can do that of course by using apt-get or the red-pill mode. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:02:19 -0600 From: "Levi Bard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation To: "Marius Vollmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected], [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > Yes, and I actually see this as a feature, since there is no "apt-get > upgrade" functionality in the Application Manager. Users would get > the newer vesion of cairo by accident, when they install or upgrade a > non-hidden package that depends on cairo. Semi-related: how about an "Upgrade All" button on the "Check for Updates" page? > Not exactly: we do not only want to control which individual packages > you can install, but also which combinations. Say there is a new > version of cairo, but we figure out that we also need to upgrade the > internet radio applet since it had a bug that--by chance--wasn't > triggered by the old version of cairo. So we want to only support the > new cairo together with the new radio applet. > > With a version locked meta package, we can make sure that the user > gets the right combinations of packages. Wouldn't you just use standard dependencies for this? Make the new radio applet depend on the new cairo? -- It doesn't take a nukular scientist to pronounce foilage! --Marge Simpson http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:15:18 +0100 (CET) From: Uwe Koch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] NX Client for Nokia 770/800 To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi again, it seems that someone has already realized a lot: http://www.simios.org/blog/everaldo hope we can get the code. Uwe __________________ _-_ \________________|)____.---'---`---.____ || \----._________.----/ || / ,' `---' ___||_,--' -._ /___ ||(- `---._____-' ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ maemo-developers mailing list [email protected] https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers End of maemo-developers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 83 ************************************************
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